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Topic Closed11AUG12 - MAJOR RELEASE (Trade)

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GM ThunderCat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2012 at 11:24
Originally posted by nitin2011 nitin2011 wrote:

How do i download "complete numerical data" where my trader is ?

PS: Ihave already done "Market Ledger" research and cant find this option.
Click "data" on at the bottom of the graph then the red "download csv" button
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2012 at 10:41
Looks like I cannot modify my orders at hub, I have completed "Efficient Trading" research ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2012 at 19:02
How do i download "complete numerical data" where my trader is ?

PS: Ihave already done "Market Ledger" research and cant find this option.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 01:07
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

[QUOTE=Kumomoto]My questions are:...


-- Does this make the currently very wealthy players harder to unseat (the simple fact that I ask this is proof that I am a man of the people and a simple, harmless, proletariat farmer)?  ;)

 
LOL - Vintage Kumo...and if GM Luna hadn't have locked the thread you would have been rewarded with your rightful place in "Hall of Infamy" for that quote alone Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 00:58
Originally posted by dunnoob dunnoob wrote:

When I look at clay, buy some clay, and then looking again at clay click "place buy order" the default wood makes no sense, it should be clay.

I know this is minor but I agree and would like to see this changed.
It's beyond fairytale, it's inconceivable!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 21:28
Sal.. a few quick points..

1.  I had already exited the Cow market, so the prices you are looking at are already manipulated by the new system.  I had buy orders up at 833 the day the patch hit, and as high as 866 the week before.

2.  Most larger traders use the 3k lot as a whole Lot.  Odd lots (less than 3k) are basically ignored.  Most larger traders have billions of gold, dealing with 100's of an item is not worth the time.

3.  Although the Devs have talked about inflation, they have to be talking about the inflation of the Gold Supply on the server, not inflation of adv resource prices.  Prices have gone down for over a year.  As a trader that was fine, since I was always trying to keep my inventory relatively low.  If you were a buy and hold investor in Illy, you have lost gold value.

I think we are confusing two questions.

1.  Will the changes allow for traders to still prosper?

2.  Will the average player still have access to liquid markets were the buy and sell spread is around 10%?  If not, is that a bad thing for Illy? 

Although I'm in contact with most of the major traders in the game, I never tried to collude with them to manipulate prices.  Everyone I talked with was trying to help out their own alliance, but also had the good of the market at heart.  The Devs have stated that they hope this patch changes that. 

I guess we will see how it all turns out. 

R.

P.S...  I had the same question about the future of thieves in the game, looking forward to that question being answered...



Edited by Roland Gunner - 13 Aug 2012 at 22:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 20:54
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

My questions are:

--Does this, in essence, create a "safe hoarding area" where folks can put all their gold and goods where they are totally safe from thieves and armies?

--What impact does this have on the value of thieves and thieving? How about conquest strategies (as they no longer can wipe out enemy wealth)? (and other associated strategies)

--Can you now have players who, even though they have very few cities (they were all taken away from them, for example) still have vast power in the game through their untouchable wealth?

-- Does this make the currently very wealthy players harder to unseat (the simple fact that I ask this is proof that I am a man of the people and a simple, harmless, proletariat farmer)?  ;)

--Are the GMs planning on introducing the ability to thieve opponents offices in hubs at some point in the future? (industrial espionage?)

I don't have any judgement or commentary on the above, just thought the questions might be useful to ask...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 20:54
My questions are:

--Does this, in essence, create a "safe hoarding area" where folks can put all their gold and goods where they are totally safe from thieves?

--What impact does this have on the value of thieves and thieving? (and associated strategies)

--Can you now have players who, even though they have very few cities (they were all taken away from them, for example) still have vast power in the game through their untouchable wealth?

-- Does this make the currently very wealthy players harder to unseat (the simple fact that I ask this is proof that I am a man of the people and a simple, harmless, proletariat farmer)?  ;)

--Are the GMs planning on introducing the ability to thieve opponents offices in hubs at some point in the future? (industrial espionage?)

I don't have any judgement or commentary on the above, just thought the questions might be useful to ask...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 19:45
Why I like the tax.

I thought about it, and I like the penalty on cancelled sales orders because I think the new system offers real opportunity to good market makers.  I can see an income stream for multi-market market makers in the 10s millions gold/day (for the right player).  That's plenty to support a massive army, 10x bigger than any 10 city player.  I imagine talented traders will build/move their capital cities in the middle of mountains in the most inhospitable places to make sieges as difficult as possible.  They will not worry about pop, so will not have to be concerned with things like sov or food.  They will have smaller "war cities" that are exodused to any location.  After 5 days these war cities will unleash their hordes on the local populations.  No trader city would support their own troops, but would rely on an influx of trading wealth to support their offensive armies.  As such, exodus would do no harm to a trader's city as the city is just a shell for troops and not an economic engine.  A talented trader could have an empire whose economic power is invulnerable to siege or blockade and whose military power is much more mobile and powerful.

I like that there are penalties on people who try this route but can't cut it.  Limited grapes, tax on filled or unfilled sell orders, these are pretty minimal hurdles compared to what's at the end of the rainbow.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 19:21
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

With regard to the penalty for repricing:  How do you see that as affecting the spread you described in the long term?

OK, you're trying to be a market maker in the new system at a specific hub.  You set your prices (750 buy, 843 sell) and say you'll handle 100,000 units at those prices.  At the end of the first trading period (day, week, month) you've badly misjudged the market and sold 60,000 units and purchased 80,000 units.  You're accumulating cows at a 4:3 ratio and need to lower your prices.  During the next period you purchase 20,000 units and sell 15,000.  Your buy order is now filled.  Your sell order still has 25,000 units on it at 843.  You want to pay less for cows so you renew you're buy order at 740 (you could have canceled the old buy order and placed this one after the first period) and when your sell order runs out (or runs low) you renew that at 833.  These lower prices should reduce your stockpile of cows.  But, let's say you're impatient and cancel everything after the first period.  So you cancel a sell order for the remaining 40,000 cows at 843.  The cost to you at 3% is going to be 1,011,600 gold.  Wow, that's a lot, but wait, you've just made a 67.71 (843 * .97% - 750) gold margin on 60,000 cows so after paying the "unfair" portion of the tax you've still earned 3,051,000 gold even while being impatient and really missing the market.  Of course, you don't really have 3,051,000 gold because you purchased an extra 20,000 cows for 15,000,000 gold.  But at the lower prices (833 sell) those cows are worth 16,660,000 gold so in reality you have over 4 million gold in profit from your screw up.  But wait, the cows were selling at 843, just not as fast as you were buying them.  You could have kept the current sell order at 843 and increase your profit even further by waiting until your imbalance decreases to 10,000 or less cows.  Of course, you can only do so as long as you have the gold resources to make it through the imbalance created by miss pricing the market.

How much gold does this take?  Well, you need 100,000 cows and about 100 million gold for this scenario.  You'll "earn" about 5% per period from that investment.  That assumes an "average" hub tax of around 3% and an inability to set margin pricing to market demand.

Most people just want to buy or sell cows.  If your margin is reasonable, they aren't going to jump into the middle of your prices given the barriers to hub trading.  Widening your margin from 93 to 103 (740 buy, 843 sell) probably isn't going to kill business and will also slow the accumulation of cows while avoiding the dreaded unfair tax but at an increased risk of competition.

Obviously, if you are accumulating gold then your sell order will run out first and there is no issue with the tax.  Traders should keep this thought in mind when trying to set market maker prices.

With the old system, there is no way to do this sort of business.  It really doesn't work, too much micro management.  This new system is awesome for people trying to do exactly what you are saying this system will kill, with or without the tax.  Heck, if I had any interest in trading I would  be happy to pay the tax to have access to the trade hubs.  Let alone have a situation where there is an even higher tax on non-trade hub trades pushing business to me.

This is all on the faction hub level.  There will be trading between hubs between traders working in different markets.  I'm not sure how that market will be arranged because I don't know if there is a mechanism for transfer of goods from trader to trader within a hub.

I can't tell you how many times I've gone to buy a certain size lot of goods at a reasonable price and distance and not found anything on the market.  It's the only reason I ever set an order.  In my opinion, there are no players actually making markets out there right now.  If they are, they are doing so as silent players behind the scenes filling only "reasonable" orders.  That is one way to do business but I feel the new way is more transparent and thus better.  I feel this is true because it will allow us (the unwashed masses) to know what prices the market maker is offering and at what trading distance before we enter the market.

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