Play Now Login Create Account
illyriad
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - H? sieging small players nowhere near thier cities
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedH? sieging small players nowhere near thier cities

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 10111213>
Author
 Rating: Topic Rating: 2 Votes, Average 3.00  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
StJude View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 568
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 21:27
Originally posted by StJude StJude wrote:

...I am only interested in discussing this further with either Honoredmule or Killerpoodle as they are two H? players that have been the most consistent in my time here.

There is no point in my continuing in this thread. The offer stands, take it or leave it.

I'll be happy to engage in civil discussion if the requested parties see fit to respond here.


Edited by StJude - 01 Nov 2011 at 21:30
Back to Top
Llyorn Of Jaensch View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 924
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 21:41
Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:

you cant have your 'asshattery' when you want it and then demand to sit at the grown up table when you want it.


Wink
"ouch...best of luck."
HonoredMule
Back to Top
SunStorm View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 01 Apr 2011
Location: "Look Up"
Status: Offline
Points: 979
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 21:42
Originally posted by SunStorm SunStorm wrote:

I LoL so hard every time StJ dismisses sound reason from level headed players.
"Side? I am on nobody's side because nobody is on my side" ~LoTR

Back to Top
Celebcalen View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 18 May 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 288
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 22:46
Originally posted by SunStorm SunStorm wrote:


Originally posted by SunStorm SunStorm wrote:

I LoL so hard every time StJ dismisses sound reason from level headed players.



Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:


Originally posted by Llyorn Of Jaensch Llyorn Of Jaensch wrote:

you cant have your 'asshattery' when you want it and then demand to sit at the grown up table when you want it.


Wink




Aww look mates Lawnie and Sunstorm have come out to play
Back to Top
LordOfTheSwamp View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 23 May 2011
Location: Swamp of Fyrgis
Status: Offline
Points: 481
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 23:06
On page one, this was interesting. An unpopular and aggressive alliance invokes compassion to small players in their dispute with the dominant alliance in the game. How will the "community", which likes to tell itself that it is so wonderfully supportive of small players and willing to stand against bullies, respond?

Unfortunately, after 12 pages of bad tempered snapping, snarling, tangents and insults, in which even Rill lost her temper, that original experiment has not come to much.

Since I stuck my oar in here, I may as well round off my foray into this thread.

As expected, the "community" has stayed really quiet on any moral / compassionate issues. There was one player saying that "obviously" this is a non-issue because all the small players were alts: this was simply someone giving themselves an excuse to duck the issue, since there is no reason to think that AB's is anything other than a small player who made some dumb / ill-informed decisions on joining alliances; he may be an alt, but it doesn't look likely, and to say we don't need to care about him because he's clearly an alt is just an excuse. We've also got some posts more or less saying that "he asked for it" by who he chose to associate with (try that one in a court of law! - "she asked for it, yer honour!") And there was the inevitable suggestion that because I was keen to raise these issues, I am therefore a Troll - because in Illyriad's forums "troll" has become an easy way to dismiss anyone who voices an unpopular concern.

Personally, I think there's a genuine concern over small players who end up in the midst of wars their leaders have started. It would have been nice if the self-congratulating guardians of small players in the game had actually been willing to say the same in a case where that might mean criticizing H?

Finally, as a long tangent, let me explain my personal opinion on this. If I don't, folks will half read my post and assume I'm some sort of H?-hater looking for an argument.
  • My perception of ICON (in its various forms, present and past) is as an aggressive alliance, which really wouldn't care about sieging other people out of the game if it were the one with the power. But...
  • I am also aware that few of us really have a clue what is going on in Illy, as the forums are rarely accurate and informative, and data is sparse, so my perception may be wrong, and I wouldn't want to get on a high horse based on this.
  • I am also aware that (it's my new drum, and I'm going to enjoy beating it) Illyriad is a feudal world, which is to say a world in which authority stems not from institutions or popular mandate or any nice modern stuff, but from the exercise of military power; watching an H? siege camp deploying is a lesson in how H? not only marshal more military force than any other alliance, but are also well able to deploy it. This ownership of superior force, and also superior ability to organize it, is what kept feudal rulers in power. It is also what keeps H? dominant. And particularly, H?'s ability to orchestrate sieges is what keeps them dominant. Now... since ICON's fortress-island policy undermined that (by creating a nest of unsiegeable cities close to H? cities), it was blindingly obviously a threat. "Oh it's only some small players / a small alliance, so it isn't a threat" utterly misses the point that in time that little island could have grown into a nest of half a dozen 15,000 pop military cites which constantly harassed H? Obviously H? were going to have to react to this - and react by exercising their military muscle! If the fortress-island had been from a peaceful trading alliance, for example, then they might have decided to live and let live - but given that it was from an alliance led by warlike players who had previously been hostile to them, they are obviously going to have to crush it.
  • I am sympathetic to the ICON guys. Whatever they have done in the past, the recent campaign against them does look like a jackal-pack hiding under a smokescreen of morality - yet again. And I have sympathy for anyone who loses the cities they have built up - even if that person is tactless or aggressive.
  • I am particularly concerned about AB's. It looks like he has had the sense to leave ICON, and I'd like to think that he will make better choices next time with his alliances. If I were in H?'s position, I'd probably offer to help the guy rebuild somewhere else... but I'd still flatten his island-based city, given ICON's past and the (slim) possibility that he might be an alt. But before I berate H? for not doing this, I might consider that, without having made a big song and dance in the forum, they might already have done something like this for the guy, or he might not want the help.
That's probably about it from me.

Now, no doubt the usual program of snarling and snapping can resume...
"A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander.
Back to Top
StJude View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 568
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 23:29
Originally posted by LordOfTheSwamp LordOfTheSwamp wrote:


  • My perception of ICON (in its various forms, present and past) is as an aggressive alliance, which really wouldn't care about sieging other people out of the game if it were the one with the power. But...
  • I am also aware that few of us really have a clue what is going on in Illy, as the forums are rarely accurate and informative, and data is sparse, so my perception may be wrong, and I wouldn't want to get on a high horse based on this.
You said some thoughtful things, please, do not see me not addressing them as simple dismissal. I am convinced that my lending voice to them would cause more harm than good as people would interpret them through the lens of their bias against me.

However, your point above interests me most.

IF ICON had this power you speak of, it doesn't matter a HOOT what I say I would do with it. It would be OUR actions that would matter most. So....this is sort of moot, since we DON'T have that power (currently at least :P)

I would however make the following arguments from our past to support why we wouldn't siege players from the game. At this stage, I also realise those with biases will form their opinion before continuing and so this is not for them.

1.) Look through our threads regarding Havoc, there was a thread of "1st *team* to siege a city and either raze it or capture it wins.

2.) We don't go after helpless newbs. We go after alliances that OUTNUMBER us in population. If our intent was to drive players from the game, we would pick on much smaller players. I ask you to consider our "targets"

3.) This is our weakest argument, but I will include it nonetheless. We are the most vocal alliance when it comes to removing *ANY* player from the game. Some of you will have seen our defense of the player Mud Wine in Global Chat who was driven mercilessly from Illyriad because he made the mistake of sending 1 thief against Eternal Chimps player Bold Eagle. We are vocal in our distaste of this deplorable tactic advocated by both The_Dude and Amroth. H?, while they have said they are against this, are sure not acting like it.

Back to Top
SunStorm View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 01 Apr 2011
Location: "Look Up"
Status: Offline
Points: 979
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 23:47
Kurdruk,

I believe you are correct in your post.  I let the overall response of Jude to Rill get to me, and then I continued to throw that back in his face.  In addition, I was messages by Kurfist asking me why I felt the need to goad Jude, and pointing out my need for more humility (and he was right).  So right now I am breaking my promise to him, and I am posting in this forum again after I told him I would try to stay out of it.

Yes, there is a huge issue of this player who happened to join up with the wrong alliance and is suffering because of Jude's choices.  With that being said, I would hate to see him loose cities - but since there is no way to know if he is one of the many alts or not, perhaps he should be left alone with the condition that nobody else joins him on the island.  Maybe H? members can take turns leaving an army there to ensure that settlers cannot take the whole island...  But if they have tried this once, expect it again on another island in the future with even more coordination in timing so all the cities land at once...  (cause Jude, contrary to the maturity of his posts, is not stupid.)

Now this brings me to one final point.  People can complain about this all they want, but Kurdruk is correct.  Once they have the whole island and have built up a strong base, they could launch attacks - but lets contemplate this.  They launch once and then they are done.  The armies will be crushed and H? would continue to attack and thieve every one of those cities until they are blue in the face (because only constant attacking will prevent them from rebuilding)  So the better plan would be to build up some strong diplomatic units (e.g. thieves, assassins, etc...) and constantly hit H? with these units.  Armies cant kill their diplomats, so they could hit cities with 3k assassins and continue to do this several times before their diplos are all killed off by runes.  And still, Harmless would have to continue to attack and thief their cities daily to keep them from rebuilding.
 
I would have wiped that island out without a backwards glance just to save myself all the headache.  Sure, I lose some PR in the process, but keep my sanity in exchange.  

*stands by and waits for lines of text to be quoted out of context*
"Side? I am on nobody's side because nobody is on my side" ~LoTR

Back to Top
Kurfist View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 824
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 23:50
Originally posted by SunStorm SunStorm wrote:

Kurdruk,

I believe you are correct in your post.  I let the overall response of Jude to Rill get to me, and then I continued to throw that back in his face.  In addition, I was messages by Kurfist asking me why I felt the need to goad Jude, and pointing out my need for more humility (and he was right).  So right now I am breaking my promise to him, and I am posting in this forum again after I told him I would try to stay out of it.



promise broken :(
Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin
Back to Top
StJude View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 568
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 23:55
Originally posted by SunStorm SunStorm wrote:

*stands by and waits for lines of text to be quoted out of context*

That's not gonna protect you from ill-informed and obviously biased opinions, but I salute your attempt.
Back to Top
Createure View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Location: uk
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 00:08
Well I admit I am not too bothered reading most of the last 2 pages - I doubt there's been anything all that new or interesting since my last post.

Although as always I took the time to read LotS's well thought out contribution. I would certainly never label you as a troll mate - no matter which 'side' your opinions might fall on - just through merit of the fact that your contributions are always well thought out, concise and you present justifications for the opinions you present.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 10111213>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.