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HonoredMule View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 22:19
Quote @Brids17: You say there's no evidence of games influencing kids behavior. I ask, where is the evidence it will not?

...I dare not judge that.


Then I shall dare.

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt.  We call it FUD for short.  While a cliche acronym, it represents a profound foolishness.  We breed strife and strike out at "enemies" all in the name of what we do not know but fear to be true.  Fear is not a tool of reason, but irrationality.  And when utilized in the name of morality, it turns its followers into perpetrators of the very evils they profess to fight.

Fear of theories grounded in nothing but free association and speculation has no business influencing yourself alone--and much less serving as grounds to dictate the creativity, design, or activities of others.  I am a fundamentalist Christian and thus member of a the group most reviled for this very practice--most notably by a majority who call themselves such but have no concept whatsoever of their God's attitudes regarding even the things He genuinely does oppose.  I say this so you will fully understand how familiar I am with this subject, even as I also tell you that such people are the greatest scourge of developed society.  People who listen to FUD are nothing but sociopaths who have finely honed the most destructive of human capabilities: the power to condemn all matters causing personal distaste (whether truly immoral, hurtful or ungodly or not), and justify evils done against fellow man while remaining flawlessly blind to the evils within.

You may think I speak in overstatement or hyperbole.  I assure you I do not.  Nor do I further argue the subject at hand with you, for you have already chosen assumption and emotion over observation and reason.  You do this in elevating arbitrarily defined and contextualized labels over functional intentions of the user (predetermined causality), and again in appealing to uncertainty using argument from ignorance.  Given the topic of kids and gaming, false-dichotomy backed correlation as causation and anecdotal evidence are no doubt soon to come--and I often wonder what special mental power we adults gain that magically protects us from any real mental or emotional conditioning gaming may cause.  Frankly, you do it yet again when you choose to identify one non-experiential fantasy exercise as more pattern-forming than another when both are equally disjoint from reality.  The link between depriving another player of goods by a game-sanctioned mechanic and actually robbing someone in real life is extremely tenuous at best, but the pleasure some take from dominating others by any means connects military actions to many real-life activities such as bullying--of course with that link we cannot so easily ignore the correlation's true relationship with causation rooted in the heart of the child.

On this foundation of appeal to emotion, no understanding can be constructed.  Just be careful that your personal convictions do not become a crusade.  Without proof of hurt--and sometimes there is some, but I seriously doubt you'll find it here in a game lacking even suspension of disbelief let alone domestic or personal violence, sexual experiences, or even rebellion against authority--you are nothing more than a moral vigilante in support of an entirely arbitrary standard.  And I care not how carefully reasoned your deductions are--basing them on a false premise renders it all gibberish no matter how sensible or intelligent they sound.
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Noryasha Grunk View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 21:13
hI vill hef hyu know, my "thiefs" are no mere criminals. Dey are state sponsored patriots villink to dedicate dere lives to damagink da henemies abilities to vage var upon us, by reducink dere materials stockpiles. Dese patrioits give dere lives so da henemies hef no swords or spears on vhich to impale our hyuong heroes on da front line.

And hyu vish to... dirty dis valient act by institutink some sort of "criminal record" for dem? Hyu insult us, hyuman - and not only do hyu insult dese thieves individually, hyu insult dere very proffesion as employees of da state, and by extension my people as a whole.

hI don't tink hI need to explain vot happens to dose dat insult my people. Hyu had better hope hyus is not in da southvest....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 19:32
@Brids17: You say there's no evidence of games influencing kids behavior. I ask, where is the evidence it will not?
This game has mature content ... too much mature? I dare not judge that. What i insist on is that with mature contents comes awareness to young kids that actions have consequences.
I respect you don't want to "parent" someone else's chid. I'm not asking anyone to do this. I am asking visibility of stealing is greater, so those who give a damn about it can act if they want.
On a side note, if you feel the misparenting or lack of induction of moral standards to children will never affect you, my personal view is to some extent you're refusing to face facts. when a society or communities deteriorates it's standards, all will feel it's effects, some more or some less, some sooner or some later
I do dislike thieves. I've been robbed and I've caught thieves with my bare hands. Enjoyed neither one of the experiences. It is not clouding my judgment, just would like to see things better in this game, and that it helps to set examples. I know I am not alone.
Why this approach to the topic finds such intense resistance from anyone is surprising to me. But I respect your opinion.
Regarding 3: I personally advocate that you get a criminal record only when caught. so most inactives will be robbed and you would get away with it, no "rap sheet"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 18:57
Originally posted by Rugre Rugre wrote:

My outlook on this topic, as i've posted in another topic, is my concern over the fact that young kids are playing this game ... and this game is telling them stealing is ok, it is profitable and if done smartly, has little or no consequences

So I do not want to be pargmatist on this @Honored, i've gone in to morality and civility mode. kids playing this will never lead armies, massacre villagers, raze cities to the ground ... but they can turn thiefs over night.


Oh god...There is no proof that video games increase the violent actions of other people. Studies have shown that it increases violent thoughts but not actions. You're assuming that because a kid sends thieves out to steal resources from other players that that could cause them to go out and steal based on nothing. There's no evidance that this happens.

The only cases where people actually go out and murder or steal because of video games are cases where the person is mentally unstable and should not have been allowed to play video games with such mature content. Video games are not the cause, mentally unstable people who probably would have done this kind of thing anyway or parents who don't parent their children are.

Originally posted by Rugre Rugre wrote:

We, as older people (I'm 35) have a duty to educate them


No, we don't. I never plan to have children so why on earth should I be expected to parent someone elses child? Regardless of how tight a parent holds onto their children they're going to eventually see mature content somewhere. The only 100% way to stop that is to remove all mature content from everything. That's simply not going to happen.

I would also like to mention that the players themselves are not actively stealing, they are sending others out to steal for them, which is the exact same thing as sending out armies. Your argument here is weak, if thieves are to be removed because they could influence children then armies and any other mature content needs to be removed as well and I just can't see that happening.

I understand that you dislike thieves but I feel your dislike for them is clouding your judgement and not allowing you to see things clearly. Moves, video games, book, etc are all going to have mature content in them. You can't remove that mature content just because some kid is going to see it. I think you're taking this situation too seriously.

Originally posted by Rugre Rugre wrote:

1 - you can't trust thieves: if you use them it is unrealistic that they would return all goods they take to your village, they'd keep half for themselves or more, for sure. that way you could use thieves to hurt your enemies, not necessarily to benefit yourself

2 - you should have policeman to catch the thieves. i know the saying "takes one to know one" i myself dislike having to build thieves units, and would rather have another unit to police my village.

3 - every thief that is caught and sender is identified, that information should go on the profile of the player, like a criminal record: how many times he was caught stealing, and when was the last time. so that way you know what kind of neighbors, allies and enemies you have to deal with


Now, back on topic.

1) All this amounts to is decreasing the carrying capacity of thieves. Personally I don't see any balancing problems with thieves considering players have hundreds of thousands of resources in their city. The only times thieves are overly devastating is when a player is either very small or when the person sends thousands of them.

2) I feel this is a waste of an update. Thieves counter thieves, there's no point in adding a unit that does something another unit can already do just fine.  If you don't want to use thieves, fine, don't use them. Just let them sit in your city to help protect it. If it bothers you that much then get a ward of intentions and set it on thieves, that should provide sufficient defense. Once again, I also recommend you join an alliance. This will also deter people from stealing from your cities and increase the chance to catch the person doing it.

3) I think this could be difficult to do properly. I use my thieves on a regular basis, often to steal from inactives in the area. Why should I get labeled as a thief for doing something everyone else does anyway? I feel this could cause people to incorrectly judge a player despite doing nothing wrong.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 15:24
Originally posted by Torn Sky Torn Sky wrote:


As HM pointed out, Stealing is wrong but murdering troops then taking resources are ok? Also if the kids are getting their morals from a game then there parents are not doing a very good job of raising their kids.


yes, parents should raise their kids better. Sad reality is they increasingly don't, and kids get it off TV, internet, online gaming etc...

I can't explain my point better then this. The commanding of armies that will slaughter foes without a moment's thought, is something a young kid will never replicate in real life. However, kids can be influenced by this game (and others) to believe stealing is an acceptable and profitable lifestyle alternative. I am not saying the game would accomplish this on its own, but together with other environmental circumstance, there is a risk some of the kids playing this game will turn to criminal activities in real life

Call me naive if you want, but I think nobody desires this, and between the more mature community of players and with a little GM cooperation, we have the strength to do and achieve better then this ... or moral obligation to try
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 14:58
The only thing that i have a problem with is when i fail a mission and there are unit losses i get 100% deaths that just doesnt seem realistic, If i send 1200 scouts to a city they may catch a bunch of them but some should be able to get away
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 14:52
Jerec's post concerning the introduction of police or "dogberries"  does have an interesting appeal, but the effect of it might not just effect thieves. You also have to take into account  other aspects of diplomacy in Illyriad such as the assassin, saboteur and sleeper roles that are developed in the Consulate.  This comes to close to Rugre's view of thieves and diplomacy. That it is dishonourable etc and should be "criminalised". Players  need to accept that diplomacy is one the Paths in the game that is available and an integral part of Illyriad.  They need to prepare for the fact that others may send thieves, assassins or sabs to your city to either weaken your defences or prevent you from building an offensive army ( intent honourably killing hundreds lol) from being formed. Sorry Rugre I don't see that it is any less dishonourable than the mass slaughter inflicted by large armies.
 
Sorry guys no dogberries for me. Thumbs Down
 
However, wiithout knowing  the full parameters involved,  I do feel that there may be a problem with the existing form of thief detection.
 
 I believe that Norcaine was complaining to TC on global recently about the ineffectiveness of "interrogation" and "counter intelligence" functions in identifying the origin of thieves who are destroyed by warding spells.  There does seem to be a real imbalance in favour of the "perpertrator" where a ward can effectively destroy two thirds of a party of thieves and yet the defender with all the proper research and units in place cannot identify the perpetrator. I would like to  see this possible point of imbalance addressed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 14:08
Originally posted by Rugre Rugre wrote:

... young kids are playing this game ... and this game is telling them stealing is ok, it is profitable and if done smartly, has little or no consequences


As HM pointed out, Stealing is wrong but murdering troops then taking resources are ok? Also if the kids are getting their morals from a game then there parents are not doing a very good job of raising their kids.

There are consequences for stealing if you are caught, there are also consequences for not building a proper thief defense your going to keep getting robbed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 13:06
Well as for the naming matter if diplomats have leaders like mil units in the near future then you can construct a diplomat army called police so there is no point to select having thieves or policemen. In real world both exist.
As for the act of theft of course there should be a penalty for the actual thief (player) too, so a suggestion would be to calculate the diplomats arrested by the police so these would stay "in prison" (a tab that can be added in the castle)  for a week with the player paying the penalty in basic resources per hour per diplomat to the victim.
The carry limit for thieves would be better limited to something like 5 (for basic) & 10 (for advanced thieves) advanced resources per diplomat because I don't think that thieves should care for basic resources. 
regards
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 12:00
Great feedback from the 3 of you, made me go back and take notes to clarify better my view on this and see if we can get more consensual
My outlook on this topic, as i've posted in another topic, is my concern over the fact that young kids are playing this game ... and this game is telling them stealing is ok, it is profitable and if done smartly, has little or no consequences
So I do not want to be pargmatist on this @Honored, i've gone in to morality and civility mode. kids playing this will never lead armies, massacre villagers, raze cities to the ground ... but they can turn thiefs over night. We, as older people (I'm 35) have a duty to educate them, it is not
There is a community of players, in this game, that from what i've read in the forums, and the respect other players show them, have arrived at top rank by having a fair and moral approach. This community is telling me the culture that rules this server and hence this game, wants it to depict higher and more noble values and actions then those seen in real life. So let's follow through

@Jerec, love the idea a city with constable/police would have higher resource and pop growth then cities with thieves, would benefit all those who refuse to use them

@G0Ds: we are indeed closely aligned on this matter. The method is relevant, if somebody is out to hurt me, I want and need to know who it is so I can fight back

@Honored: hope you see our arguments in a better light. Glad you agree with the criminal record concept. This "rap sheet" should only count after the day it is implemented, the past would be water under the bridge. should not reveal id of victims. should only indicate stealing when detected (e.g. when you use it to farm inactive, would not be picked up). saboteurs i consider a valid military action, not criminal. assassination not sure.
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