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Topic ClosedExploit Allowing NPC's to Join a Player's Army
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Darkwords View Drop Down
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Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 01:47
Originally posted by belargyle belargyle wrote:

Originally posted by Elmindra Elmindra wrote:

Why should people be banned for something the game engine allows for?  This has been an issue for quite some time, the devs haven't seen fit to fix it so obviously it isn't high on their list.  There is no hack or exploit being performed here.  If there happens to be NPC's on a square when a blockade lands then they join your forces.  Both sides know this and have known about this for some time, both sides can and have used this to their advantage.

The idea that someone could control the server side game engine to manipulate NPC spawning is just absurd, if that were the case then they could manipulate everything and the game would be broken.
Purposefully abusing a glitch not once but consistently, like all other issues of this sort of consistent abuse, should follow the same procedure - banning. 





LOL I have never seen a player 'banned' for miss-using mechanics like that before, the last example that I can think of is VICs defensive mechanics used through a tourney.  Don't think anything happened to them for that.
<Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that

[21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted

<Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps
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Rill View Drop Down
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Points: 6903 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 01:53
I guess my question is, why are you so sure this is intentional?  Just because it happened several times doesn't mean it's not coincidental.  Did it happen on EVERY blockade from X player or alliance?  Or is it possible that some people are just throwing a lot of blockades around, and happen to sometimes land on NPCs?

Just because there appears to be a pattern doesn't mean it's not random.  See apophenia: http://scienceornot.net/2012/08/14/perceiving-phoney-patterns-apophenia/

I don't know if there is some sort of exploit or hack going on here, I'm just saying that so far I haven't seen any convincing evidence that there is -- and that there are many reasons that what SEEMS to be a purposeful pattern may in fact be coincidence.
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Points: 119 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 02:37
Predicting where NPCs land adjacent to a city or somehow causing NPCs to appear where a blockade is and reinforce that blockade is somewhat absurd. Elmindra has succinctly explained the mechanics of this strategy that is available for both sides to use.

Its not even clear how this can be a called a glitch in the game. A blockade is not an aggressive action against NPCs, so the game reasonably allows the NPCs to merge with the blockade. I imagine the blockaders can lounge in the comfort of a legion of scritchers because they are not hostile to them. When caravans pass by, the blockaders capture them, without raising a fuss among the scritchers. When the blockaders bring scritcher treats, then they become the best of scritcher friends. So I can imagine the scritchers defending the blockaders when DLord armies march on them.
It may be that you are right. Then again, you may be wrong.
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Ander View Drop Down
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Points: 1269 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 03:23
Originally posted by Juswin Juswin wrote:

Elmindra has succinctly explained the mechanics of this strategy that is available for both sides to use.

Its not even clear how this can be a called a glitch in the game. A blockade is not an aggressive action against NPCs, so the game reasonably allows the NPCs to merge with the blockade. 

That sounds very logical. It would be nice if the devs could clarify if this is working as expected or not. If it is not working as expected, what should be the ideal behaviour of NPCs in these situations?




Edited by Ander - 08 Jan 2014 at 03:24
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belargyle View Drop Down
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Points: 401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 05:02
Originally posted by Juswin Juswin wrote:

Predicting where NPCs land adjacent to a city or somehow causing NPCs to appear where a blockade is and reinforce that blockade is somewhat absurd. Elmindra has succinctly explained the mechanics of this strategy that is available for both sides to use.

Its not even clear how this can be a called a glitch in the game. A blockade is not an aggressive action against NPCs, so the game reasonably allows the NPCs to merge with the blockade. I imagine the blockaders can lounge in the comfort of a legion of scritchers because they are not hostile to them. When caravans pass by, the blockaders capture them, without raising a fuss among the scritchers. When the blockaders bring scritcher treats, then they become the best of scritcher friends. So I can imagine the scritchers defending the blockaders when DLord armies march on them.

IF you send an army to a tile where no NPC is at, to occupy the tile, and an NPC army arrives before you do - do you just occupy the tile the together since the army was not intentionally going there to be the aggressor to the NPC's?  Of Course Not! They kill your armies, as many many people will vouch for.

ALL armies are hostile when sent out from your cities (except reinforcements). Look at the 'notifications' part of your menu when when you send your armies out, even to occupy, it is called a - hostile intention.


Edited by belargyle - 08 Jan 2014 at 05:16
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belargyle View Drop Down
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Points: 401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 05:13
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I guess my question is, why are you so sure this is intentional?  Just because it happened several times doesn't mean it's not coincidental.  Did it happen on EVERY blockade from X player or alliance?  Or is it possible that some people are just throwing a lot of blockades around, and happen to sometimes land on NPCs?

Just because there appears to be a pattern doesn't mean it's not random.  See apophenia: http://scienceornot.net/2012/08/14/perceiving-phoney-patterns-apophenia/

I don't know if there is some sort of exploit or hack going on here, I'm just saying that so far I haven't seen any convincing evidence that there is -- and that there are many reasons that what SEEMS to be a purposeful pattern may in fact be coincidence.
Every blockade sent thus far, from the same alliance, yes. 

Sorry, your presumption of continuous actions in repetitious form (all, with the same similarities) do not conform to the theory these are only coincidences. Ergo, no - not random at all.

I am reporting the fact of what is going on. The evidence is not for you nor anyone else here to look at and evaluate... that is why it was all put into petitions and given to the Devs. They have the petitions and all that has been placed in there. I was merely supporting the OP in it's premise and stating I have placed petitions in there as well. :)
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Aurordan View Drop Down
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Points: 982 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 05:15
Originally posted by belargyle belargyle wrote:

Originally posted by Juswin Juswin wrote:

Predicting where NPCs land adjacent to a city or somehow causing NPCs to appear where a blockade is and reinforce that blockade is somewhat absurd. Elmindra has succinctly explained the mechanics of this strategy that is available for both sides to use.

Its not even clear how this can be a called a glitch in the game. A blockade is not an aggressive action against NPCs, so the game reasonably allows the NPCs to merge with the blockade. I imagine the blockaders can lounge in the comfort of a legion of scritchers because they are not hostile to them. When caravans pass by, the blockaders capture them, without raising a fuss among the scritchers. When the blockaders bring scritcher treats, then they become the best of scritcher friends. So I can imagine the scritchers defending the blockaders when DLord armies march on them.

IF you send an army to a tile where no NPC is at, to occupy the tile, and an NPC army arrives before you do - do you just occupy the tile the together since the army was not being the aggressor to the NPC's?  Of Course Not! They kill you armies, as many many people will vouch for.

ALL armies are hostile when sent out from your cities(except reinforcements). Look at the 'notifications' you will sent that when you send your armies out, even to occupy, it is called a - hostile intention.

Having conducted a thorough examination of Juxwin's post, I find it probable that it was mean ironically, most likely in a form of jest.  
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Points: 21 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 07:50
i thought that once the army was sent to blockade the square and npcs on that square stayed there and it locked them onto the square until they died?  like when you attack an npc army around a 0600, 1200,1800 or 0000 mark  they dont just leave they wait patiently to be slaughtered lol.    also im wondering if the people didnt notice the npcs around the city then send it and it stayed there until the blockade arrived.   thats why anytime i have an incoming army i check around my city and clear any npcs there
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Darkwords View Drop Down
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Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 13:24
Just thought I would let people know that Luna has been in contact with me in regards to this matter and I have explained to her how this 'tactic' works.  It would be fairly easy for the devs to prevent it from working if they feel it unbalances the game or anything, so I expect we will find out what their view on the matter fairly soon.

I personally voiced my opinion that it should be stopped, not because of the way it is currently being used, but due to something I could do using the same mechanics, which would place my side in a notably unfair advantage.
<Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that

[21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted

<Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps
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Ander View Drop Down
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Points: 1269 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 14:13
Originally posted by belargyle belargyle wrote:

  like all other issues of this sort of consistent abuse, should follow the same procedure - banning. 

More than being a glitch, this is probably a case of us being unaware of the game mechanics in some special circumstances.

If settlers arrive on the same tile where an inbound siege lands, the siege army sets up a camp within the newly found city itself. This behaviour is same for settlers as well as exodus.

This 'glitch' was brought to attention in 2011 October. The response from GM Stormcrow was that

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

As it is an understood (albeit, I agree, unrealistic and imperfect) game mechanic that has been used in the past, we're not willing to intervene or change game rules as a knee-jerk reaction to a longstanding game mechanic.

The original post where the problem was reported

The responses by GM Stormcrow

In the current case at least you have a recourse of normally attacking the enemy camps. If a siege gets set up within another city of your own (as was the case with St Jude), you cannot even attack the siege.

I dont know for sure if the sieging army was sent back; from the responses back then it looks like it wasnt. Also I am not sure if the mechanics were changed later some date.

Personally I believe this behavior should stay. Players should be able to make use of roaming NPCs to their advantage.

PS:
My offer of 1000 gold per poisonous crawler still stands Big smile
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