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Topic ClosedExploit Allowing NPC's to Join a Player's Army
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Ander View Drop Down
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Points: 1269 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 03:23
Originally posted by Juswin Juswin wrote:

Elmindra has succinctly explained the mechanics of this strategy that is available for both sides to use.

Its not even clear how this can be a called a glitch in the game. A blockade is not an aggressive action against NPCs, so the game reasonably allows the NPCs to merge with the blockade. 

That sounds very logical. It would be nice if the devs could clarify if this is working as expected or not. If it is not working as expected, what should be the ideal behaviour of NPCs in these situations?




Edited by Ander - 08 Jan 2014 at 03:24
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Points: 119 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 02:37
Predicting where NPCs land adjacent to a city or somehow causing NPCs to appear where a blockade is and reinforce that blockade is somewhat absurd. Elmindra has succinctly explained the mechanics of this strategy that is available for both sides to use.

Its not even clear how this can be a called a glitch in the game. A blockade is not an aggressive action against NPCs, so the game reasonably allows the NPCs to merge with the blockade. I imagine the blockaders can lounge in the comfort of a legion of scritchers because they are not hostile to them. When caravans pass by, the blockaders capture them, without raising a fuss among the scritchers. When the blockaders bring scritcher treats, then they become the best of scritcher friends. So I can imagine the scritchers defending the blockaders when DLord armies march on them.
It may be that you are right. Then again, you may be wrong.
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Rill View Drop Down
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Points: 6903 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 01:53
I guess my question is, why are you so sure this is intentional?  Just because it happened several times doesn't mean it's not coincidental.  Did it happen on EVERY blockade from X player or alliance?  Or is it possible that some people are just throwing a lot of blockades around, and happen to sometimes land on NPCs?

Just because there appears to be a pattern doesn't mean it's not random.  See apophenia: http://scienceornot.net/2012/08/14/perceiving-phoney-patterns-apophenia/

I don't know if there is some sort of exploit or hack going on here, I'm just saying that so far I haven't seen any convincing evidence that there is -- and that there are many reasons that what SEEMS to be a purposeful pattern may in fact be coincidence.
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Darkwords View Drop Down
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Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 01:47
Originally posted by belargyle belargyle wrote:

Originally posted by Elmindra Elmindra wrote:

Why should people be banned for something the game engine allows for?  This has been an issue for quite some time, the devs haven't seen fit to fix it so obviously it isn't high on their list.  There is no hack or exploit being performed here.  If there happens to be NPC's on a square when a blockade lands then they join your forces.  Both sides know this and have known about this for some time, both sides can and have used this to their advantage.

The idea that someone could control the server side game engine to manipulate NPC spawning is just absurd, if that were the case then they could manipulate everything and the game would be broken.
Purposefully abusing a glitch not once but consistently, like all other issues of this sort of consistent abuse, should follow the same procedure - banning. 





LOL I have never seen a player 'banned' for miss-using mechanics like that before, the last example that I can think of is VICs defensive mechanics used through a tourney.  Don't think anything happened to them for that.
<Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that

[21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted

<Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps
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Darkwords View Drop Down
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Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 01:43
That would be odd, but it is easy to place a block on a legion outside your cities, just because legions are so common there, I would presume they send the block and then monitor waiting for a legion to land and then block it there, but if they are 'magically' appearing at the same time as the block as you seem to describe, then yes I would agree there is something odd happening in the game coding somewhere.
<Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that

[21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted

<Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps
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belargyle View Drop Down
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Points: 401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 01:39
Originally posted by Elmindra Elmindra wrote:

Why should people be banned for something the game engine allows for?  This has been an issue for quite some time, the devs haven't seen fit to fix it so obviously it isn't high on their list.  There is no hack or exploit being performed here.  If there happens to be NPC's on a square when a blockade lands then they join your forces.  Both sides know this and have known about this for some time, both sides can and have used this to their advantage.

The idea that someone could control the server side game engine to manipulate NPC spawning is just absurd, if that were the case then they could manipulate everything and the game would be broken.
Purposefully abusing a glitch not once but consistently, like all other issues of this sort of consistent abuse, should follow the same procedure - banning. 
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Points: 401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 01:30
Dark - here is my question:

How can you determine a legion of NPC's will land at 'x; location (NOT THERE YET) days ahead of time?

THis is my point. and Yes, I have the documentation of it in the petition given. The three I gave were the latest ones that were inbound over 3 days (2 were over 5 days out) and when they landed - magically, so did the legion of NPC's
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Darkwords View Drop Down
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Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 00:49
Out of interest, why are the devs treating this as a glitch now, when they described the use of the same tactic (through diplos blocking npc's) as an inventive tactic to be commended when it was used against me?

I have to say I am left feeling a little discriminated against here.

EDIT;  I have actually read through all the above here, looks like I have explained how to do this to everyone above (and no I am not editing that out).  I merely discovered it for myself after the DLords posted about it here, yet they have seemed unable to work it out, so the tactic is pretty straight forward as you should now be able to see, you can use it yourselves if you wish.  Are you happy with this now, or are you gonna continue to complain about a game feature that you have used against me and supported in the past.


Edited by Darkwords - 08 Jan 2014 at 00:54
<Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that

[21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted

<Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps
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Sir Bradly View Drop Down
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Points: 228 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 00:47
NPCs should be fighting the blockader, not reinforcing them.  Easy fix...

I am not pointing figures at players.  I am more annoyed that this issue has not been addressed for 6 months.

Anyways...I am not wasting anymore time on it.

I don't see it getting fixed, so not worth petitioning it or arguing about it.  We will just have to accept it and move on.

Thanks for the response Luna.

SB
[04:46]<HATHALDIR> okay,I'm a bully
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Rill View Drop Down
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Points: 6903 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 00:41
Sir Bradly, I think Belargyle seems to be implying something different.  He is saying that the NPC is not already there (or was not there at the time the army was sent) and then somehow magically appears at the time the army arrives -- and that people are able to predict or even to CAUSE this to occur.

The idea that players are somehow manipulating the game in order to cause this is to my mind an extremely serious allegation.  Such manipulation would seem to be against the Terms of Service (unless it is related to a discovery of which I at least am unaware).

With regard to the circumstance you described, whether sending a blockade to a square that is occupied by an NPC is fair play or is not fair play would seem to be a matter of debate, unless the developers make a statement one way or the other.

I find it hard to imagine that the developers would rule that landing armies on top of reinforcing NPCs is an unacceptable exploit.  From a practical standpoint, it would be extremely annoying for them to have to police the issue.  (What would be the remedy for the player who was blockaded?  How could it be proven that a player didn't simply overlook an NPC encampment when a blockade was sent?  Would it operate on something like a three strikes principle?  If so, three strikes in what period of time?  Would it be dependent on how often a player engaged in blockading?)

UNLESS this is a hack OR the developers find a way to prevent this "bug" from occurring, probably it will be up to us as players to come to some consensus as to whether this is acceptable.  As players we would again run into the difficulty of proving that someone had purposefully engaged in the behavior.  And if the person had, what would we do? Siege them down?  Each side is trying to do that to the other anyway -- and I don't see anyone here saying "Someone on my side seems to be doing this very bad thing and I think he should be punished."

I DO hope the developers thoroughly investigate this issue and if it's a bug, fix it, and if it's a hack, both kill it and punish those responsible.

I do NOT see that much is to be gained from pointing fingers at each other on the forum.
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