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Discussion: Does the market in Illy "work"?

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Marquesta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marquesta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Discussion: Does the market in Illy "work"?
    Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 19:04
This is a genuinely confusing topic for me. I think in straight lines, and trading is anything but a straight line. An alliance member brought this up in AC, and I have a really hard time understanding why he says the markets in Illy don't work. To my mind, if it's the only market we have, besides trading directly between players (which isn't really a market), it works because it's the only system there is. It works according to the laws of Illy.
This is what he said;
"Anything valued at more than a million in centrum is worth one unit. And then you trade something else for it."
When I asked him to explain, he said;
"There are a lot of anatomies where there has been no trade or where offers are larger than a million. You don't use gold for those, and instead trade one of one kind for one of another kind."

Thoughts? 
~~Marquesta
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DeathDealer89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2019 at 03:54
Market is working fine.  Scarcity is extremely high leading to high prices and demand simply isn't there for those high prices therefor almost no trade takes place for those items.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Eros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2019 at 09:26
Depends what you mean by 'work', but things get bought and sold so it functions as a market

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2019 at 00:05
How is it different from... selling off item(s) worth 1m gold and then using that 1m gold to buy the item you need? 

As far as market mechanics are concerned they are sound... except for the supply & demand analytics, the metrics it provide are not very useful...

Item exchanges are to be managed between player to player... that to me is completely logical... 
I think there is no harm in using the Illyriad forum for this activity... List the items you want and what you are willing to exchange for it... 


Warning! Author of this post has weird sense of humor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smilee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2019 at 06:13
Your friend talks about volume/liquidity, which for many items is very low. Ex.: You can trade millions of units of food at any one time, buy and sell. However, for some furs or minerals you can trade only one or two no matter the price.

Second, as he or she implies, prices are nonlinear. That means that 10x the quantity is not 10x the price, but rather more than that. How much depends on, again, market liquidity. Think of it as a premium for the ability to trade large volumes at once, instead of splitting your order for 100 million food into 100 trades to 1m each and waiting for a while in between for the price to normalize. 

Third, the player means (*I think*) that you don't pay 1m gold for something expensive and rare, you only sell something worth as much and then trade that gold for that item. Which can be technically true, but he or she misses that that is the exact same thing. You are still short the 1m gold you have netted from selling your item. So that is really just a psychological accounting trick, your friend values 1m gold more than the other item he swapped for the thing they bought. The effect is that his centrum cash pile is unchanged (makes it seem like he or she did not pay 1m gold) and the item sold for 1m isn't mentally accounted for - but they're still gone. Of course you use gold to trade in centrum, there is no other way even if you rationalize it somehow with swapping items.


Edited by smilee - 06 May 2019 at 06:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doophusson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 00:03
The market clearly does not work in Illyriad, or there is a lack of people working to make it work.

Consider horses.

You can currently buy horses for 56 gold each.
Or you can make your own with 20 wood, 5 iron, 60 food and 7 gold.
You can sell wood for 0.9 gold, iron for 0.9 gold and food for 1.95 gold.

So if you buy horses you can sell the resources to make horses for 139.5 gold, plus the 7 gold, for a profit of 90.5 gold per horse. That's an insane profit. It means selling horses is destroying more than 60% of the value of the resources used to create the horse.

I have stopped producing horses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spektor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 02:48
Doophusson I disagree with your analysis. I would say the market price of basic res is more of a price for the effort of listing and trading, than for the actual res. I'd say basic res is essentially free, making the cost of producing a horse for yourself ~7 gold, much less than the market price.

I think Eros' reply is spot on. It all depends on what you're talking about when you say a market is "working".

Originally posted by Eros Eros wrote:

"Depends what you mean by 'work', but things get bought and sold so it functions as a market"





Edited by spektor - 11 Jun 2019 at 02:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doophusson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 08:33
Spektor, I would agree with you to an extent for the wood and iron, but for the food isn't that something people tend to run out of when making their cities as large as possible?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 22:47
Basic resources, and manufactured resources always have prices in excess of their individual values. Therefore, it is better to trade items for gold rather than combine them. My theory about this is that when valuing the finished article, people always assume you got some ingredients "for free" i.e. not bought for cash. Also, I believe that when troops are killed,only a percentage of equipment is recoverable, unless the troops are defending in a town (their own town). Dropped stuff eventually disappears. People don't bother with special equipment because it goes missing so easily. The large quantities vs single items argument can work both ways. I have bought large amounts at both discount and at a premium. The game currently favours harvesters and crafters, but the temporary nature of special equipment is a real disincentive. No-one will deploy a special item or unit if it might go missing/get destroyed.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spektor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 03:48
Originally posted by Doophusson Doophusson wrote:

Spektor, I would agree with you to an extent for the wood and iron, but for the food isn't that something people tend to run out of when making their cities as large as possible?


Perhaps. That statement does not describe everybody though. Just to continue this specific thought experiement, let's reduce your stated price by the same amount as we reduced the others (to account for market friction). So then a 56 gold horse is made up of about 67 gold worth of stuff. That's a bit closer at least.

However is your argument that food is highly demanded? Thus its price would go up. If it is in more demand than horses, then its price would be higher for an "equivalent" amount. Yes? Sounds like a market working to me.

Let's take a shot at a real life analogy. Someone takes a bunch of diamonds, and molds them into a basic framing hammer, how much would you pay for the hammer compared to the diamonds, and how many people would buy it? Maybe that's a bad analogy, but I think it at least highlights one important point.

What conditions do you (or anyone) expect a market should exhibit to be called "working"?
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