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Promasean
New Poster
Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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Topic: Diplo Losses are Unreasonable! Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 14:43 |
Ander wrote:
The current mechanic of thieves is excellent to keep farming a large number of small to medium sized players with total anonymity. |
Isn't this a bad thing???
Ander wrote:
Thieves are unreliable as an offensive tool. |
This is also a bad thing IMHO. In RL espionage, counter intelligence, etc are a major part of real world conflict. The results of diplo attacks should be more realistic. If anything their roles and abilities in game should be expanded or more specialized. Cutting off an enemies food supply, propaganda to lower morale or blowing up a military installation are examples of what RL dips would do.
Maybe when dips are caught you would have the opportunity to try to rescue them if you had the proper units to send.
Prom
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Ander
Postmaster General
Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1269
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 03:43 |
I have lost thieves in bunches varying from 2000 to 7000. Out of multiple success missions, most were against inactive players with no diplo defense at all. I would keep an eye on my score and if there was an increase of score more than a few hundred, i would consider the last mission very lucky and not send any more missions to that town. The current mechanic of thieves is excellent to keep farming a large number of small to medium sized players with total anonymity. Thieves are unreliable as an offensive tool. It will take you ages to train those few thousand thieves and they would be eating a million gold per day for many months before you get a chance to use it against an enemy - that is when they go and die like lemmings.
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Mandarins31
Forum Warrior
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 418
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 00:25 |
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yeah, logically for me, higher number of Thieves (or other diplos) should get a higher chance of causing a partially succesful mission (some get caught and interrogation is succesful -detected-, but the mission was still successful) but a lower chance for a total fail and all the diplos dead. At the oppisite, smaller groups of diplos should get a higher chance of total success, but a higher chance of total death if they get caught. would sound more logical to me already. How could 10k thieves have a higher chance to pass unnoticed in a 2k pop city than 10 thieves...
Also, if i remember, city size already has some effect on chances to get caught: lower pop has higher defensive chances than higher pop... that is already logcal for me... but currently not that significant obviously.
Also i agree, we currently only have 3 diplo mission results: total success, success but detected, total fail and death. I think there should be an other result that should increase with the size of the attacking diplo army. And that result would be to be unsuccessful, identified, but only partially dead.
Im not sure how calculation currently works, but imo, each mission result should get a certain comparative percentage of chance to happen. And this percentages should vary on factors like proportions between attacked city size and attacking diplo army size. After there is the factor proportion between defensing diplo/ attackng diplos, but i suppose this one already is implemented to determine success or failure rates.
Edited by Mandarins31 - 02 Jan 2012 at 00:33
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jamieh
New Poster
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 26
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 23:28 |
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That is a fair point Cuddlefuzz but the issue there is that the smaller the size u send, the bigger the advantage to the defender. Also, there is a certain amount of reality that should be reflected in the diplo attacks. If u send 100k theives to a town with 2k pop, then it is entirely reasonable to think that some of that number will get caught. The mission may even be a failure and they bring nothing back. However, it is totally unreasonable to think that all those diplos would get caught and die. Under the current game mechanic, there is a 1% chance that all 100k would die and 99% chance that all of them would get away and steal something.
I dislike theives as i feel the current mechanic allows too much room for little sniping attacks against new players and not enough scope for diplos to be a real offensive weapon in the hands of very large players. At the moment i could go around effectivly farming noobs with complete anonimity, especially since the follow the bird technique is no longer applicable. But if i build a large theif army i am guarenteed that they will get wiped out after 100 missions? that sucks.
I think that a system like what Prom is suggesting would probably lead to a much fairer system where you are more likely to get caught stealing and thus face the diplomatic repercussions. It could also make low level theiving more expensive and a much riskier proposition. But it would reward those willing to take the risks with a much bigger reward and allow theiving or sabbing to become more viable at the higher ends.
Maybe its just me but i don't like to see newer players getting robbed with no recourse but at the same time watch thousands of theives turn to dust on a suspended inactive.
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Cuddlefuzz
Greenhorn
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 47
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 22:31 |
This is an entirely reasonable game mechanic and easily worked under.
If you are trying to feed your city from an inactive and don't want to lose any diplos, send military units. The drawback is that you won't get advanced resources.
Otherwise, you can break your diplo attacks into smaller chunks. This has exactly the same effect of increasing liklihood of failure but reducing the impact. Send 400 first to clear the rune, then send more waves appropriate to city size...
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Promasean
New Poster
Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 22:16 |
Rill wrote:
So you would prefer a higher risk of getting caught and lower losses each time? |
These losses we are talking about are in addition to any runes present which I do not have a problem with.
I think the current 1:100 chance of getting caught is fine where it is. But the losses should be factored by something other than everyone dies. If the target has a higher lv consulate, thieves defending, bigger population then yes the losses should be higher. But when the thieves outnumber the population there is no way it is reasonable to lose them all.
Prom
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 22:02 |
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So you would prefer a higher risk of getting caught and lower losses each time?
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Promasean
New Poster
Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 20:48 |
Rill wrote:
From a gameplay perspective, it makes sense to me that diplo missions should carry a higher risk in terms of failure because they are so much lower risk in terms of identification. It helps make the game more balanced. |
I am ok with the higher risk of getting caught. What I think is unreasonable is the total loss of all men. I have lost 5k master thieves several times on inactive players in my own alliance. It takes 47 days and about 17 million worth of adv res to replace them. There in no apparent difference in the risk between a 200 pop city and a 15k pop city. I have lost in these numbers to both. This is not reasonable in my opinion.
Prom
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 19:58 |
Diplo missions have some pretty significant advantages over military ones. One big one is that they are hidden. Military attacks on cities are always identified as to the source. Diplomatic missions can only be identified if the target attacked has defending diplos and the interrogation technology or is able to track back (which is challenging with diplo visibility changes and will be even more challenging at some point when units stop traveling in straight lines).
From a gameplay perspective, it makes sense to me that diplo missions should carry a higher risk in terms of failure because they are so much lower risk in terms of identification. It helps make the game more balanced.
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elmasfregon
New Poster
Joined: 01 Jan 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 15:45 |
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I fully concur with the thoughts of my esteemed colleague. I have lost over 3500 troops at about the same 100 to 1k ratio he cites in his post. While I also agree that those odds are OK, the enormous loss of troops seems inordinate to other areas of play here in Illy.
Why not consider an adjustment to make things a bit more equal to say military encounters. At least there one has a pretty good idea of what the troop losses might be and an all or none scenario is rare.
The game play would be much more enjoyable with some greater equity in this area. Appreciate your feedback.
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