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Defending with Knights?

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    Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 02:12
Originally posted by Deranzin Deranzin wrote:

Originally posted by Elanor Elanor wrote:

If you are under attack from a larger player and your best option is to hurt him enough to make him back off then you dont defend a city next to a building.


A siege on a building square is not an automatic win you know ... Smile


I agree on that - we have troops that has advantages on different terrains, attack/defense (cavs - plains, spears - mountain/forest, swords - forest/mountains, bows - mountains.  or whatever come first. :D

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Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deranzin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 18:01
Originally posted by Elanor Elanor wrote:

If you are under attack from a larger player and your best option is to hurt him enough to make him back off then you dont defend a city next to a building.


A siege on a building square is not an automatic win you know ... Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elanor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 12:57
If you are under attack from a larger player and your best option is to hurt him enough to make him back off then you dont defend a city next to a building. Either move the city or write it off. You certainly dont start to make a mix of units just to defend a badly placed city. This might not feel good but if you are the underdog then you dont waste units on a bad position, you write if off and pick a better fight and later a better spot. : )


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deranzin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 11:29
Originally posted by Elanor Elanor wrote:

If you are not under attack already and need units fast then the best defense is to only build t2 knights.


This largely depends on the ground the siege is standing ... if it is in buildings, for example, then T2 cavalry is not only the slowest unit in terms of time it take to be created, but the most inefficient one as well ... when the war ends I might write a guide, but for now : 

General guidelines are:

Never defend with cavalry.
Never attack with spearmen.
In every case, check the underlying terrain.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elanor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 09:27
If you are not under attack already and need units fast then the best defense is to only build t2 knights. Build some of the buildings that lower the cost of t2 knights and get as many of them as you can. Combine it with a vault (so your res dont get cleared out) and runes that kill attackers (and hope they dont know the bug) and the simple tactic of never ever have units in your city if you are attacked. (If you see incomming then  just move them away or if you fear an attack when you are offline then send then travelling for enough hours that you can get online before they get back).
Then your best defense is to use the knights to attack any siege you get against you or targets of good value you come across. Later you might want to build some t1 knights for shootgun tactics on sieged/blockaded cities but generally having lots of t2 knights is your best defense, and having only 1 type of units will give better value out of the cost reduction buildings. If you get to 9 or 10 cities one day then you might have the knowlede and insight and location to be more specific in each city but until then t2 knights are your best allround unit. Just remember, never have units in a city under attack if you can avoid it, only fight if forced or you know the odds.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 01:13
Dwrwd, those are good questions. I mostly agree with Rill's answers. However, the single most important factor in combat with other players (especially war) is the size and proficiency of your alliance and its allies. The next most important factor is how defensible your city would be against both direct attacks (the square of the city itself) and especially against siege assault (all the squares around your city). Personal forces are a good idea, but those other two factors swamp your individual power by an order of magnitude. Possibly even two orders of magnitude.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2014 at 23:53
I mostly agree with the caveat that if you or your neighbor is already under attack there's really little you can do.  The two broad conditions I consider are peace and war.  During peace I expect to maintain large armies and therefore look at attack or defense per upkeep.  During war or tournaments I need to build as fast as I can and therefore look at attack or defense per build time. 

 My choice of building units suited for attack or defense have more to do with coordination with my overall alliance, based on the strengths of my race and cities.  So as a human I tend to build more cavalry because that's what humans are good at.  Dwarves in my alliance build infantry; elves build ranged.  (That's speaking very broadly; most players will maintain at least some of the various types of units to avoid being in the position of for example sitting on cavalry for a whole war when nothing is happening.)

The time I look at production cost per unit of attack is mostly in hunting NPCs, as you noted.  I tend to use t1 chariots for this purpose, since I am mostly surrounded by plains; if there were more forests, I might use more swordsmen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dwrwd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2014 at 23:39
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

For most purposes you look at effectiveness relative to three different measures:  build cost (cost of inputs required to make the unit), upkeep cost and build time.  Cavalry may have higher absolute attack and even defense values, but have lower defense values relative to build cost, upkeep cost and build time.

Considering what Rill said, do you agree that:

1) You need to maximise defence/upkeep if you are afraid you could be attacked at any moment (e.g. while your alliance is at war)

2) You need to maximise defence/build time if you are under an immediate threat (you see an incoming army)

3) You need to maximise attack/build cost if you want to go hunting as you constantly need to replace losses

4You need to maximise attack/build time if you need to relieve a siege (on your city or a neighbour's)

5) You need to maximise attack/upkeep if you are secretly building up an army while waiting for the right chance to attack someone

6) You need to maximise only attack value and build small elite divisions of T2 spears and ranged if you are a small-medium sized player who is in not going to attack anyone nor has any particular reason to believe he will be attacked but does not want to be caught with his pants down if that happens (in other words if you are me :-)

PS: Do you know if anyone ever made tables for such values as attack/build cost and so on?


Edited by Dwrwd - 15 Feb 2014 at 23:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2014 at 23:22
Basically correct. There are some wrinkles to the equations, but that's how battles work. Terrain plays a significant role. Commanders can also supply significant bonuses to attack and defense, as can prestige. The only other large factor is City Wall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dwrwd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2014 at 22:51
OK thanks. I think now I get it, but please check if this is right:
A = total atk value (incl. bonuses commanders and so on)
a = number of attacking troops
D = total def value
d = number of defending troops

If A>D attackers win; defender losses are 100%; attacker losses are D/A*a
If A<D defenders win; attacker losses are 100%; defender losses are A/D*d



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