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Topic ClosedCrime & Punishment & Orcs (a.k.a. BSH)

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Bonaparta View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 18:56
Originally posted by scaramouche scaramouche wrote:

you miss the point...settling that close to someone without any notification and attacking their sov is an aggressive move by anyone's standards.

Not by anyone's standard... Those two cities could coexist as they are without any economic hindrance to each other. There isn't enough space in Elgea anymore that would make it possible that all cities would be 10 sq away. Vermino probably planned to settle there himself or one of his friends, but got beaten to it, then he started claiming unreasonable sovs around that city.

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Silent/Steadfast View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:01
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Interesting!

People must be really starving for conflicts. Let me try to clarify few things before 20 alliances declare war and feel very proud and just about it...

Vermino, why didn't you start by telling that you and your former alliance agreed to that duel and you fully knew what was at stake, actually it was you who proposed the duel it out with Tigre to me. Perhaps your overconfidence got the best of you when you assassinated most of Tigre's commanders, thieved tens of thousands advanced resources of him and won few skirmishes. Truth for a change wouldn't hurt. Why didn't you accept Tigre's offer to recall a siege and end this? Why did you lie that you couldn't even get 40M which is not even the amount your thieves took from Tigre. In your thieving city alone is much more ... resources worth over 1.5 billion. I think that if Tigre's spies wouldn't find out the truth you would still pretend to be a poor pacifist with large armies and huge amount of thieves just to protect yourself... In fact I was amazed when I saw that spy report. You are richest thief I ever saw... Perhaps I will write more on this matter later but let's go on to other posts.
So you're saying:  After getting screwed over by our aggression, Vermino, you offered a one on one battle that you weren't prepared for so that you could save your alliance from destruction, attempted to win it via sabotaging your enemy's war effort, and now that the war is going badly for you, you offer us ONLY 50 mil to stop! (Yes, the number was 50, not 40 mil)
Honestly Bona, I've always respected you as a leader of the community and of your alliance, however on this one the facts are against you.  Vermino DID inform me about the conflict (I lead the alliance he joined) and sent me the mails between you, Tigre, G0DsDestroyer, and himself, and what I see is Tigre forcibly taking from Vermino what was his by right of length of occupation.  Let's talk about how gracious Vermino was in allowing Tigre to settle so close to him in the first place, shall we?  He didn't have to do that, and when he did he did set down rules to make sure that the area would remain at least mostly under his control.  Well, Tigre saw how nice his new neighbor was, and decided to take advantage of it.  Is this honestly how you want your alliance to conduct it's affairs in Illyriad?  
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Ander. Vermino switched alliances already. I very much doubt that he informed his new alliance leaders about entire situation and even if he did I even more doubt that he spoke the truth. If he would, I doubt that any serious alliance would accept him.
 

Edited by Silent/Steadfast - 29 Aug 2012 at 19:04
"Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM)
"SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM)
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Hadus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:01

I'm too far from the situation to call the rights and wrongs, but I'd say this comes down to politics? You mentioned being unprepared? That, unfortunately, is a valid factor in war; few battles were won in history without some element of surprise.

I'd also be interested in hearing what sort of agreements and confederations you alliance had been working on recently, in the event of an attack from a larger force. That could have been a great help to you.
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Silent/Steadfast View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:07
As I'm not able to coherently post the rest of my previous message due to a lot of code appearing when I do, I'll do it here:

Vermino sent me the logs of your conversation with him within 3 minutes of me asking for them.  It's rather hard to forge an entire conversation in 3 min.  As for seriousness, REALM and the entire STEEL confederation are very serious about diplomatic matters such as this, and we wholeheartedly support Vermino in his plight.  



RANDOM STUFF TO BE SACRIFICED TO THE WALL OF EVIL TEXTNESS!


Edited by Silent/Steadfast - 29 Aug 2012 at 19:09
"Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM)
"SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:07
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Scaramuche, actually those spots become Vermino's sovs only after the city was already there in 5 days cool down period. Not to mention they are too far away to make any profit for Vermino.
 
I wont argue too much on the squares  because i dont know the exact squares that are in question, other than to say vermino's intentions were probably to sov the squares in his own time...Tigre's sudden appearance on the scene obviously forced vermino's hand to sov them sooner,  rather than when it was too late.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:09
At the end of the day, even if we suppose that tigre was originally in the wrong due to city placement or sov claiming or whatever, the matter comes simply to this: Vermino agreed to a duel with tigre, and now that he's losing he has executed the classic "run to the community for pity" manoeuver. 

We at BSH like to encourage disputes between players to be resolved between players, and duels are a nice way of accomplishing this. They cause limited casualties, avoid large-scale "pile-on" wars, leave alliance leadership free to deal with other matters, and they can be a lot of fun. In fact, many players happily agree to duels, sometimes with detailed agreed-upon restrictions, and have a blast. I wish more players would use this method to settle disputes rather than whining in GC. It is reminiscent of the idea of settling a dispute with a chess match.

We do not force anyone into duels. The only reason our alliance got involved in this tigre/Vermino fiasco to begin with was the fact that tigre was getting hit repeatedly with major diplo attacks of different races and Vermino's city was being reinforced by his alliance mates. And our involvement was kept short and sweet, wrapping up quickly with an agreement to duel, happily accepted by both parties. If Vermino didn't want to duel, he shouldn't have agreed to it, and then we might be discussing a different issue. As it stands, tigre was fully prepared to perhaps lose his city in the event that he was bested by Vermino, and he would not have spoken a word of complaint if that had been the outcome. This culture of "punish the winner" is not a healthy one, and shouldn't be encouraged.

I suggest that we resolve this issue by reverting to the previously agreed-upon terms of defeat: Vermino pays 50M in gold or advanced resources. Vermino, your initial claim that you couldn't muster this amount is belied by your stockpile of over 200k saddles, which, incidentally, was the insult that originally led tigre to demand more. I have not conferred with tigre on this proposal; rather, I am proposing it now, to you both, for you each to evaluate as you will.


Edited by Raatalagk - 29 Aug 2012 at 19:11
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Vermino View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:15
Damage control, Bonaparta? I'll tell you something, the best damage control is not to do things you can't defend.
Thanks Scaramouche, moving so close and forcefully taking my sov is the whole point.
Bonaparta, everything you said is in accordance with what I already said. Only that you're making it look slightly prettier for BSH, although I'm afraid you fail. 
I proposed the duel as the only way out to avoid BSH attacks on my alliance without entirely submitting to your unreasonable demands. It's not like I went around asking for a duel and my concern at that point was to save my alliance. I never thought I had a great chance of surviving, but I accepted the deal and I'm not asking for help.
But you know what? It's strange that 3 days after agreeing on a one on one duel I send my thieves to a town who had no thief defense previously and 10000 thieves get caught. Maybe someone forgot to remove his thief reinforcements?
On the other hand, it's clear that Tigre was preparing for this conflict for a long time before he moved his town next to mine. I thought he was actually looking for what is happening right now. After reading that you used this technique before, I'm sure.
And I'm certainly filthy rich, that is why I'm funding whoever wants to fight Tigre and the rest of you for your bullying and warmongering. After all, since you're erasing me from the map, I'll pay for Tigre's coffin if I can. At least that would be more than 1 million advanced resources put to good use and not feeding your war machine.
Thieves out there, please don't get excited. My stuff is being moved to an occassional sitter I have for safekeeping.
How I got all that stuff? Innactives and enemies or people who had attacked me. A lot of people refrain to thieve from innactives because they don't have the right amount of thieves to crack the nut, but I do. You won't find an innocent victim of my exploits (well, I made a mistake two years ago, but I refunded it).
Bonaparta, if you expect me to give you my bank statement while you are extorting me, you're nuts.
I have two days ago switched alliances, yes. It's kind of merge and my new leadership knows everything about BSH. Only they're little too. I know it's pointless because I'm being erradicated, but it was scheduled.
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Vermino View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:26
Raatakalg,
 
Tigre was never hit by diplos other than mine. The duel was not exactly on free will but I accepted it. I think you actually engineer every duel you have and I suspect BSH is oftentimes the offender to begin with.
 
What moved me to post here is that after setting terms I could agree to, however outrageous, Tigre learns that I'm richer and wants to milk the cow. What is the price for lifting a siege? no fairness or justice involved in the calculations, just whatever you can extort from your victim.
 
My town is half in ruins now, and I don't give a damn. I actually prefer to give all my resources to someone who would do something about BSH ways.
 
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Bonaparta View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:41
Read the Raatalagk post above Vermino. I agree with it 100%. All reinforcements were removed from Tigre's cities and no assistance was given to him. You scouted and spied Tigre cities periodically so I assume you know this. About your theory of Tigre preparing for this... Most of his towns just exodused and he lost majority of his forces in a war. You are good with words and diplomatic units I give you that...

Silent: As I understand you've got all the mail correspondence before Vermino joined your alliance. Why didn't you contact any of us before? Why only now when siege is in place and Vermino is unable to break it? Would any forum post even exist if Tigre would be on the loosing side?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:47
Apologies if I am missing the bigger point here.  If you agree (and especially if you initiate the challenge), to a duel, and after each opponent takes ten steps, turns, and fires; you lose much more face by claiming that the duel was unfair in the first place than if you just accept your losses, learn from your mistakes, and move on.
I think any moral high ground you before had was lost to any consequences of this conflict you agreed to enter with Tigre, unless there was some agreed upon rules of engagement.  Tigre could be asking a lot more from you I think, and would be his/her right.
...and miles to go before I sleep.
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