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Topic ClosedCrime & Punishment & Orcs (a.k.a. BSH)
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Vermino View Drop Down
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Joined: 21 Aug 2012
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 21:17
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Interesting!

bul·ly 1 
n. pl. bul·lies
1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.
2. A hired ruffian; a thug.
3. A pimp.
4. Archaic A fine person.
5. Archaic A sweetheart.

So by you bravely extending your "services" to Vermino against Tigre which point in deffinition would apply, perhaps a sweetheart? (Tigre is half your size, you do offer yourself for hire, not to mention Tigre lost most of his armies in this duel....)
 
This had escaped my notice, Bonaparta. I see you've done your homework after I accussed you of bullying. So now you know you are a bully for bashing me in the head with your 37k T2 cavalry being so much bigger than I am. But you take a very loose definition. You are not a bully when you stop someone from comitting a violent crime even if you're stronger, only when you take advantage of your strenght to abuse a victim. Go read Olweus as I advised you.
 
I must also give a fair warning, least people would take your word for the truth. Tigre has not lost that much, he's sieging me with 65k troops, 40 catapults and some rams. It will end quickly.
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Vermino View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 20:53
Originally posted by invictusa invictusa wrote:

Apologies if I am missing the bigger point here.  If you agree (and especially if you initiate the challenge), to a duel, and after each opponent takes ten steps, turns, and fires; you lose much more face by claiming that the duel was unfair in the first place than if you just accept your losses, learn from your mistakes, and move on.
I think any moral high ground you before had was lost to any consequences of this conflict you agreed to enter with Tigre, unless there was some agreed upon rules of engagement.  Tigre could be asking a lot more from you I think, and would be his/her right.
 
Apologies accepted. The biggest point is not the duel or Tigre razing my cities, which he will do. The two main points are:
  1. Tigre initiated the conflict taking by force what was mine and had never been his. His demeanor since the beginning of the situation has been despicable. Nobody moves 4.5 squares from another town without expecting a conflict. I even let him stay, fool me, but he wanted everything.
  2. Most importantly, I was accepting his unreasonable conditions (since he started all this and I shouldn't pay reparations at all on top of losing the sov.) but when he learned I could afford more, he tried to milk me after setting up his own conditions which I was accepting.
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Silent/Steadfast View Drop Down
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Points: 553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:58
Honestly, this entire situation would be so much easier if BSH admitted that Tigre was wrong to try to take Vermino's sov in the first place.  Sure, the duel would continue.  But at least Vermino would feel that he had been justified.  Raata offers peace, but his peace involves Vermino paying for what Tigre started.  He has confirmed on the forum that Tigre's city would stay as it is, with Vermino's sov.  The commencement of the duel was not the beginning of this conflict, as BSH claims, but the taking of Vermino's sov.  
"Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM)
"SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM)
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Points: 488 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:47
Apologies if I am missing the bigger point here.  If you agree (and especially if you initiate the challenge), to a duel, and after each opponent takes ten steps, turns, and fires; you lose much more face by claiming that the duel was unfair in the first place than if you just accept your losses, learn from your mistakes, and move on.
I think any moral high ground you before had was lost to any consequences of this conflict you agreed to enter with Tigre, unless there was some agreed upon rules of engagement.  Tigre could be asking a lot more from you I think, and would be his/her right.
...and miles to go before I sleep.
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Points: 541 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:41
Read the Raatalagk post above Vermino. I agree with it 100%. All reinforcements were removed from Tigre's cities and no assistance was given to him. You scouted and spied Tigre cities periodically so I assume you know this. About your theory of Tigre preparing for this... Most of his towns just exodused and he lost majority of his forces in a war. You are good with words and diplomatic units I give you that...

Silent: As I understand you've got all the mail correspondence before Vermino joined your alliance. Why didn't you contact any of us before? Why only now when siege is in place and Vermino is unable to break it? Would any forum post even exist if Tigre would be on the loosing side?

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Vermino View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:26
Raatakalg,
 
Tigre was never hit by diplos other than mine. The duel was not exactly on free will but I accepted it. I think you actually engineer every duel you have and I suspect BSH is oftentimes the offender to begin with.
 
What moved me to post here is that after setting terms I could agree to, however outrageous, Tigre learns that I'm richer and wants to milk the cow. What is the price for lifting a siege? no fairness or justice involved in the calculations, just whatever you can extort from your victim.
 
My town is half in ruins now, and I don't give a damn. I actually prefer to give all my resources to someone who would do something about BSH ways.
 
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Vermino View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:15
Damage control, Bonaparta? I'll tell you something, the best damage control is not to do things you can't defend.
Thanks Scaramouche, moving so close and forcefully taking my sov is the whole point.
Bonaparta, everything you said is in accordance with what I already said. Only that you're making it look slightly prettier for BSH, although I'm afraid you fail. 
I proposed the duel as the only way out to avoid BSH attacks on my alliance without entirely submitting to your unreasonable demands. It's not like I went around asking for a duel and my concern at that point was to save my alliance. I never thought I had a great chance of surviving, but I accepted the deal and I'm not asking for help.
But you know what? It's strange that 3 days after agreeing on a one on one duel I send my thieves to a town who had no thief defense previously and 10000 thieves get caught. Maybe someone forgot to remove his thief reinforcements?
On the other hand, it's clear that Tigre was preparing for this conflict for a long time before he moved his town next to mine. I thought he was actually looking for what is happening right now. After reading that you used this technique before, I'm sure.
And I'm certainly filthy rich, that is why I'm funding whoever wants to fight Tigre and the rest of you for your bullying and warmongering. After all, since you're erasing me from the map, I'll pay for Tigre's coffin if I can. At least that would be more than 1 million advanced resources put to good use and not feeding your war machine.
Thieves out there, please don't get excited. My stuff is being moved to an occassional sitter I have for safekeeping.
How I got all that stuff? Innactives and enemies or people who had attacked me. A lot of people refrain to thieve from innactives because they don't have the right amount of thieves to crack the nut, but I do. You won't find an innocent victim of my exploits (well, I made a mistake two years ago, but I refunded it).
Bonaparta, if you expect me to give you my bank statement while you are extorting me, you're nuts.
I have two days ago switched alliances, yes. It's kind of merge and my new leadership knows everything about BSH. Only they're little too. I know it's pointless because I'm being erradicated, but it was scheduled.
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Raatalagk View Drop Down
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Points: 154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:09
At the end of the day, even if we suppose that tigre was originally in the wrong due to city placement or sov claiming or whatever, the matter comes simply to this: Vermino agreed to a duel with tigre, and now that he's losing he has executed the classic "run to the community for pity" manoeuver. 

We at BSH like to encourage disputes between players to be resolved between players, and duels are a nice way of accomplishing this. They cause limited casualties, avoid large-scale "pile-on" wars, leave alliance leadership free to deal with other matters, and they can be a lot of fun. In fact, many players happily agree to duels, sometimes with detailed agreed-upon restrictions, and have a blast. I wish more players would use this method to settle disputes rather than whining in GC. It is reminiscent of the idea of settling a dispute with a chess match.

We do not force anyone into duels. The only reason our alliance got involved in this tigre/Vermino fiasco to begin with was the fact that tigre was getting hit repeatedly with major diplo attacks of different races and Vermino's city was being reinforced by his alliance mates. And our involvement was kept short and sweet, wrapping up quickly with an agreement to duel, happily accepted by both parties. If Vermino didn't want to duel, he shouldn't have agreed to it, and then we might be discussing a different issue. As it stands, tigre was fully prepared to perhaps lose his city in the event that he was bested by Vermino, and he would not have spoken a word of complaint if that had been the outcome. This culture of "punish the winner" is not a healthy one, and shouldn't be encouraged.

I suggest that we resolve this issue by reverting to the previously agreed-upon terms of defeat: Vermino pays 50M in gold or advanced resources. Vermino, your initial claim that you couldn't muster this amount is belied by your stockpile of over 200k saddles, which, incidentally, was the insult that originally led tigre to demand more. I have not conferred with tigre on this proposal; rather, I am proposing it now, to you both, for you each to evaluate as you will.


Edited by Raatalagk - 29 Aug 2012 at 19:11
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scaramouche View Drop Down
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Points: 432 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:07
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Scaramuche, actually those spots become Vermino's sovs only after the city was already there in 5 days cool down period. Not to mention they are too far away to make any profit for Vermino.
 
I wont argue too much on the squares  because i dont know the exact squares that are in question, other than to say vermino's intentions were probably to sov the squares in his own time...Tigre's sudden appearance on the scene obviously forced vermino's hand to sov them sooner,  rather than when it was too late.
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Silent/Steadfast View Drop Down
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Points: 553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 19:07
As I'm not able to coherently post the rest of my previous message due to a lot of code appearing when I do, I'll do it here:

Vermino sent me the logs of your conversation with him within 3 minutes of me asking for them.  It's rather hard to forge an entire conversation in 3 min.  As for seriousness, REALM and the entire STEEL confederation are very serious about diplomatic matters such as this, and we wholeheartedly support Vermino in his plight.  



RANDOM STUFF TO BE SACRIFICED TO THE WALL OF EVIL TEXTNESS!


Edited by Silent/Steadfast - 29 Aug 2012 at 19:09
"Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM)
"SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM)
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