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Ander 
Postmaster General
Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1269
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 Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:17 |
 The_Dude wrote:
The rank-n-file of Consone must understand that they are in a war now only to satisfy the egos of Consone leaders who misled Consone into war and are unwilling to pay the price to end the war. |
Thanks for offering your hat dearRESt officer, but we don't polish shoes. 
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Hora
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:19 |
The_Dude wrote:
Surrender is your path to peace. There is no peace without surrender. Consone wishes that its sins will be forgotten and everyone shakes hands and moves on. That's not gonna happen regardless of how many times you propose it.
Consone seems to think that if only a new negotiator talks somehow the Coalition will change its terms. That is fantastical thinking.
Here's where we are: Coalition has presented terms to stop the war. Consone has rejected those terms. War continues.
The rank-n-file of Consone must understand that they are in a war now only to satisfy the egos of Consone leaders who misled Consone into war and are unwilling to pay the price to end the war.
Consone holds the keys to peace. Accept the terms of surrender and peace will once again sweep the lands of Illy (excepting that nCrow Ursor Directive  ). |
We never stated it will be shaking hands and happyness. We would like to have your terms in one worded form. Perhaps you have given us exact terms already, but either those might have been lost with leadership changes, or a bit vague... If you want, and if you and your ego feel happy about it, see it as us asking for terms. It would be nice, if you could mail those to Manannan, thus you wouldn't have to mail all those Consone leaders each for him/herself. Consone leadership constantly is in AC and forums, and talks to its members (yes, TD, that actually is possible!). I only recently heared talks about leaving Consone, if we ever agreed to a onesided surrender. So please leave that "that all so misleading leadership" stuff, it gets a bit annoying...  (And as you mentioned it... nCrow is in no war I know of... but I don't want to derail this thread any further...)
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Hora
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:26 |
abstractdream wrote:
I have no inside information. What I say here is based on what I have gleaned from these forums.
It seems to me there is a misunderstanding about why there is a war. This war is about breaking Consone. From what I can tell, that is the goal of the war and by extension would be the goal in ending it, therefore negotiating with Consone as a whole, with a Consone representative is contrary to the goal.
From what I can see, as long as Consone survives, the war will continue. |
There's no confusion on the goal... that was clear from around day 3 or 4... What I don't get... why do you still continue? In various posts in here, your side poses about how much stronger they are, how much pop we might have lost, how much alliances dropped out of Consone... ...ehm... what was the goal of the war? Any concepts of not allowing diplomacy/trading etc. between alliances friendly to each other is ridiculous, and won't be accepted. We offer to talk about alternatives, but that seems not to fit into whatever heads steer this strange trove war...
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Aurordan
Postmaster
Player Council - Ambassador
Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 982
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Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:31 |
Darkwords wrote:
ohhhhh.... getting personnal now.
But seriously, I would edit that post b4 Luna finds it ;)
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What on earth do you think is wrong with any of these posts that needs editing? On topic though, unless there's some backroom dealing I am completely ignorant of, it seems like this war is going to continue for some time. Consone is basically down to players able to fight and willing to continue for the foreseeable future. The view unconditional as absurd, because there's no reason they couldn't just keep fighting. Harmless?, on the other hand isn't willing to offer any kind of reasonable peace. From their perspective, they're winning, and they're used to their enemies being so frantic to to surrender they will agree to their terms, or just leaving the game entirely. So I guess they'll all just sit there killing eachothers men until the Coalition makes some stronger headway (Which it seems like would have happened by now, but I dunno.) or they start feeling the war weariness and losing participation (Which could be a while. The Coalition seems to be made of alliances that are very cohesive and active and/or really like fighting.) And then when one side does decide they need to bring this to a close, the fact that they've been burning diplomatic bridges and insulting each other all over these forums is going to make it all the more difficult. I guess my point is: New players, this is what we call "Catching up time".
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The_Dude
Postmaster General
Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
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Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:41 |
Elmindra wrote:
I can speak for Frost on this matter. After seeing the effort and time investment required to continue with a war, our smaller members decided to move to where they could continue their crafting/trading in peace while the rest of us merged with other Consone alliances.
In the entire time of the war we have indeed lost people, but not to the reasons you think. Real life is a constant threat, and usually takes a larger toll on membership than any game.
As for positions of power, yes the Coalition holds the distinct advantage simply due to the amount of friends it has gotten on it's side. But the simply fact is this, most of our players and yours have grown throughout the war. One side sees the war as good fun, and some on the other side do as well. One side is actually interested in a simple peace, where the other side is interested only in domination.
You have made it abundantly clear you are not actually interested in peace, only surrender. Those are two completely different ideas, and I am sorry to say that you will not ever get surrender from the majority of us. To be quite honest, it is just a game. If you actually do manage to inflict greater losses on us, no real damage is done. What would be damaging to Illy and at least a third of it's players would be for no good reason surrender to your outrageous demands.
There is a line drawn as I see it, you will not allow peace, and we will not allow surrender. This new landscape of constant war is the future of Elgea. Who really loses are the players on both side that tire of the constant effort involved and leave the game completely because of it. |
Big words from someone 1K sqs away from me.
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belargyle
Forum Warrior
Joined: 17 Jun 2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 401
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Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:42 |
Sajreth wrote:
Yet on the realistic side.....on this point it has been agreed....we have chosen Mananaan to be the intermediary for Consone,.. |
It is not what 'you choose' that matters here, it is what we will accept. If you wish out of the war, you do not get to dictate how you will do this. Of course you can always offer, but that does not mean it will be allowed. The Coalition forces have given H? the authority to speak on all our behalf in these negotiations and they speak for us, as one. Thus IF, (I haven't heard them state Mananaan can't be an intermediary for individual alliances) - IF - H? chooses to only deal with the alliance leadership directly.. it is our right to do such.
| I cannot speak for all of Consone, as I am but one leader in a crowd of many, however, I can at this point (unless otherwise dictated by the alliance as a majority) state that WE are willing to agree to a ceasefire, not a full surrender at this time. |
A 'ceasefire' is not an option on the table.. that option passed in the early part of the war, of which The Coalition offered but Consone did not desire at that time, thus surrender is now the option. It is 'OK' to not wish to surrender but don't sit there and say you want 'peace' once more in the lands of Illy and NOT take what is offered you FOR peace. If you want out and want peace, then do what is necessary for both to happen, if not, take up the sword and shield and defend what is left.
| WE refuse to be bullied into a position of submission, especially after the exorbitant conditions presented before us. (which I offer to be released in full to any who ask, as I believe in full transparency, and won't be dictated to by the other party(ies) involved) |
Please, Please, PLEASE.. for the love of God, STOP with the 'bullied' garbage. You entered a war, you are being fought as one IN a war.. this is not bullying.. it is WAR.
Exorbitant? HA! It could have been much more.. but something you might not understand is that there are 'consequences' to being in a war, and if you cannot win it, there penalties to pay to get out of it, and part of that includes insuring there isn't a small pause in the building up new armies for a quick new assault, in the near future.
| WE were separately in the process of negotiation, as an individual alliance. We though belong to Consone as a whole, and have chosen Mannanan to speak for us as a group. It is felt that if H? is really sincere about re-establishing the overall peace of the realm, it can be handled in the realm of the public and not in secrecy (unless they have an overall deceptive ulterior motive in which they wish to hide from the rest of the community) |
Again, you don't get to dictate how you will surrender nor do you get to dictate how negotiations will proceed. This is between the Coalition and WE, and H? is our representative. If you wish peace and out of the war, you will deal in the manner prescribed, and if not.. we continue.
| Since H? has a coalition supporting them as a group, it is only appropriate that they negotiate with us as a group.....If this was a one on one alliance war I would feel otherwise....however a group begets a group. |
You have it all backwards.. We are a Coalition supporting each other, not just H. We have appointed H as our spokesmen alliance. Yet in this war, due to its size, it is easier and more beneficial to deal with each alliance separately. If we did it your way.. those alliances who already left Consone side or those currently might wish to leave, would not have been able to leave because the Consone core will not surrender (they did). It is a PR move on Consone's side to wish to do this as a group, instead of letting alliances leave the war as they feel the need (for whatever their own reasoning).
| Once again WE are ready to discuss terms of a ceacefire, or peace via Mannanan re-establishing the previous peace enjoyed in the realm as it was before. WE, however, will not surrender to those that are the biggest bullies in the game. |
Yeah.. biggest bullies.. you see how we have forced people do our wishes, move where we wanted them, extorted funds from them so they could live where we let them..
You seem to forget that we are the same people who aided you alliance at it's inception, the same ones you enjoyed our friendship with, and helped you in your protection, worked with you to help keep others off your backs. Yeah - biggest bullies. You guys really need new rhetoric.
However there will be no cease-fire (let's just all lay down our weapons and call it even). Additionally, if you don't wish to surrender then you, by your own admission, have no desire for peace but in fact only desire WAR. Well sir, we will bring you what you so desire.
| As the leader of WE I will state from here on forward, we will conduct ourselves as appropriate to current situations. Unlike other alliances WE will not hold past grudges as an account for current situations, WE will be the bigger person (or group of persons as it were). Not the children who hold the past accountable for the present. |
Then stop acting like children, stop whining, and do what is necessary for the peace you CLAIM to want but wont move from your position. Be the 'so called' bigger man and if you wish to end this, do so!
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The_Dude
Postmaster General
Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
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Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:44 |
abstractdream wrote:
I have no inside information. What I say here is based on what I have gleaned from these forums.
It seems to me there is a misunderstanding about why there is a war. This war is about breaking Consone. From what I can tell, that is the goal of the war and by extension would be the goal in ending it, therefore negotiating with Consone as a whole, with a Consone representative is contrary to the goal.
From what I can see, as long as Consone survives, the war will continue. |
From what I was told at the outset, destruction of Consone is not a goal. It may happen sua sponte, but it is not a goal of the Coalition. As long as 1 party is at war, former Consone alliances will be required to severe NAP/Confeds to ensure no "meddling" among known allies.
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Hora
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:45 |
The_Dude wrote:
Big words from someone 1K sqs away from me. |
That means, you're 1k squares away from her, too, if I'm correct?  And words have to be big to reach across so much distance, and that doesn't make them less true...
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Hora
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:05 |
belargyle wrote:
A 'ceasefire' is not an option on the table.. that option passed in the early part of the war, of which The Coalition offered but Consone did not desire at that time, thus surrender is now the option.
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Would like to have seen this option... and especially the reasons why it passed! First notice I got was sieges at the doorssteps and the offer for surrender...
belargyle wrote:
It is 'OK' to not wish to surrender but don't sit there and say you want 'peace' once more in the lands of Illy and NOT take what is offered you FOR peace. If you want out and want peace, then do what is necessary for both to happen, if not, take up the sword and shield and defend what is left.
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All we did is offer talks, for us to know what we had to do for getting peace... I can't recall specific terms, besides the cancelling of diplomacy, which we can't accept.
belargyle wrote:
you are being fought as one IN a war..
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Then let us negotiate as one... it can't be too difficult!
belargyle wrote:
Exorbitant? HA! It could have been much more.. but something you might not understand is that there are 'consequences' to being in a war, and if you cannot win it, there penalties to pay to get out of it, and part of that includes insuring there isn't a small pause in the building up new armies for a quick new assault, in the near future.
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We actually didn't even build up for a first assault...
belargyle wrote:
Again, you don't get to dictate how you will surrender nor do you get to dictate how negotiations will proceed. This is between the Coalition and WE, and H? is our representative. If you wish peace and out of the war, you will deal in the manner prescribed, and if not.. we continue.
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Belargyle... that was an offer... You have H?, we chose Manannan, what problem do you have with that?
belargyle wrote:
You have it all backwards.. We are a Coalition supporting each other, not just H. We have appointed H as our spokesmen alliance. Yet in this war, due to its size, it is easier and more beneficial to deal with each alliance separately. If we did it your way.. those alliances who already left Consone side or those currently might wish to leave, would not have been able to leave because the Consone core will not surrender (they did). It is a PR move on Consone's side to wish to do this as a group, instead of letting alliances leave the war as they feel the need (for whatever their own reasoning).
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Peacetalks of Consone with RES (for example) were denied, with reference to H? being spokesman... why don't we get same right? Talk with Manannan, tell him, what you want from each alliance, and he'll send it round... should be less work...
belargyle wrote:
Additionally, if you don't wish to surrender then you, by your own admission, have no desire for peace but in fact only desire WAR. Well sir, we will bring you what you so desire. |
I thoght we offered talks... doesn't sound very aggressive to me...
And I'd like to finish with a famous quote, which should be apprechiated by everyone on here:
belargyle wrote:
Then stop acting like children, stop whining, and do what is necessary for the peace you CLAIM to want but wont move from your position. Be the 'so called' bigger man and if you wish to end this, do so! |
Edited by Hora - 06 Feb 2013 at 18:12
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Hora
Postmaster
Joined: 10 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 839
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Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:07 |
The_Dude wrote:
From what I was told at the outset, destruction of Consone is not a goal. It may happen sua sponte, but it is not a goal of the Coalition. As long as 1 party is at war, former Consone alliances will be required to severe NAP/Confeds to ensure no "meddling" among known allies. |
Then please give us the chance to talk as one (although this might only be the rest of former Consone). I can't really grasp the logic behind denying that then, if that wasn't the goal... /me is totally confused now, and needs some rest 
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