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Topic ClosedCommander training

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Innoble View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Commander training
    Posted: 14 Jun 2012 at 21:00
Hmm in response to the original poster: 

It is actually more fair than you think, at least with division modifiers. While with attack skills you can choose to increase only one division bonus (charge for cavalry), you can only use it for one troop type. You still need all 4 of them if you want to lead other troops than cavalry. The only reason this seems lopsided is because most people choose to specialize. But if you don't, you're gonna need more than just charge.

While defense skills do indeed number 4, you only need 1 if you expect to be attacked by a specific troop type. If you're defending on plains, you can expect to be hit by cavalry and cavalry defense is useful. It also works for ALL YOUR troop types. Unlike the offensive ones, which are troop specific. So you can defend with a combination of cavalry and spears and you will still only need one defense skill if you know you'll be hit by cavalry. You cannot do this on attack. 

So the 4 to 1 thing works both ways for offense and defense with division modifiers.

It is only really off/unfair for personal skills. Heroism works for all offense and the personal defense skills work only for one type each. Heroism is pretty much overpowered. Not that it matters because most people will take it before anything else so noone has an unfair advantage.

As for heroism being so much stronger than divisional offense. This is true in most cases, but many veterans have 5-10k troops per town, at which point they are comparable. The thing that really makes heroism strong is that they stack for different commanders. You can have 5 heroism 10 commanders in an army, but you can only have one charge bonus (for cavalry troops)

In the end it matters little. Everyone with commander levels 30-40 will both have heroism and a divisional modifier maxed. It is the rest of the skills that will vary from player to player. 






Edited by Innoble - 14 Jun 2012 at 21:55
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Beer Horn View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2012 at 20:15
I think the reason why attack is easier to focus is because when defending the terrain gives you a bonus e.g. mountains limit attacking horse units etc.
 
So if you could lvl defensive commanders the same way as attackers... and get the terrain bonus (not to mention walls and more players pooling troops in a defending cities) defenders would get too strong. It would in practically be impossible to defeat anyone.
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Akita View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 11:16

There's also a weird extra thing... if your army is relatively small, and your commanders already have some heroism levels, you MIGHT benefit from a divisional attack upgrade instead of an extra heroism level... because apparently (KillerPoodle recently informed me of this in another thread) the attack power of commanders can NOT surpass the attack power of the regular troops... so if your commander attack is already above total army attack, pushing extra heroism levels will not help at all.

For instance, if you have 4 heavy cavalry commanders with L5 heroism each and only 124 or less heavy cavalry in the army, you get no extra attack power for that army by pushing L6 heroism in any of the commanders.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 07:52

Heh, whoops, got my mind stuck on L20 buildings and forgot commander skills only go up to 10.

But yeah, you're right, units equivalent in attack power to 600 units of the commander type is the breakeven point between personal attack and squad attack.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 14:59
Akita - your logic is sound but each commander attribute is limited to L10. My calc is that you need 600 units under a given commander for the 1% divisional bonus to equal a single personal level. More than 600 units (per commander) and a single divisional bonus level is better than a single personal level

I concur on leveling personal stats for commanders before divisional with a few exceptions. For example, speed is almost always useful for slow units (swords, spears) and I would not bother leveling attack for a spear unit until I had maxed out everything spears are actually useful for.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 06:02
Very very few people have 4 thousand troops in total at a single city today.  By the time anyone has 4k troops of one kind anywhere, they'll almost assuredly have the personal and unit-specific division upgrades maxed...probably all of them.

So I agree with your implied conclusion...there's no reason not to go hog-wild on personal attack first.  But I'd take it a step further.  A Marshall with level 10 Heroism has 3,599 attack.  Once those 4 thousand troops are expended against something, you're starting all over with divisional bonus.  But the full benefit of level 10 Heroism (equivalent to 60 extra Marshals) is back in business with a day's barracks production alongside the parallel resurrection of your commander (assuming he died).  So Heroism represents more reusable value as well as more versatile.


Edited by HonoredMule - 29 Jul 2010 at 06:11
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Akita View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 02:53

One level of heroism-enabled attack upgrade results in the equivalent of adding 6 troops of the same type as the commander, attack-wise. So a L20 commander with 20 levels in heroism will have an attack force equivalent to 121 troops of his own type (so, him plus 120 fictional ones). Times 5 commanders, that's 605 troops (the 5 commanders plus 600 fictional ones).

On the other hand, if you have an army of, say, 4000 units of the same type as the commander, with a *SINGLE* L20 commander with all points into squad attack, you have an equivalent attack power of 4800 units lead by a L0 commander, 195 equivalent troops extra compared to the previous five full-heroism commanders example. And if you also add 4 other commanders with heroism L20, that's 5284 units (compared to 4605 equivalent units if all commanders only trained heroism), for a whooping 679 extra equivalent units.

So, it does matter, but only later on. Early on, heroism all the way, for all you care.



Edited by Akita - 29 Jul 2010 at 02:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2010 at 00:13
"I think the bigger problem is that the troop bonuses seem almost meaningless next to the commanders personal bonuses."

That depends hugely upon the quantity of forces you wield.  Personal upgrades are definitely better for starting towns, but if you can mass a few thousand troops, those bonuses will start to really count.  And by the time you have those numbers, you may very well be able to upgrade all of the stats significantly, leaving you to choose whether you want a general army or specialized task force.

Also, in the long run, you're going to have 5 commanders at every city, and often will see no reason not to pair up commanders with single unit-type divisions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2010 at 23:13
I think the bigger problem is that the troop bonuses seem almost meaningless next to the commanders personal bonuses.

At 1000 troops, all with an attack of, say, 15, putting a level into troop type boosts attack by 1%, assumming all the troops are the same type, results in an increase of 150 attack. Putting a level into personal attack for the commander results in about the same increase, regardless of the number of troops!

In a way, then, the defense boost is better - It is a lot more likely you'll have 1000 assorted troops than 1000 of a certain type, meaning that you can place your defensive commander in charge of all your various troops, and the bonuses still apply. You can use him to fill out gaps in your defenses - if you're in thick forest, you put your bonuses into defense against infantry and spears, for example. If you're on plains, against cavalry.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 21:20
Ah great thanks Killerpoodle, so basically you think this is indeed orchestrated by the gms like this with a purpose? I indeed see your point in this as well.
 
Starting to make sense now. Would love some gm input to though, but if they think this covers it all, then I'll be fine with that.
 
Again my thanks to you both for your input.
 
Nahtania, Orcisha from Black Whole
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