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Nahtania View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Commander training
    Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 17:53
Hi all,
 
I have been wondering. Been playing with commanders and such... you know... we Orcs need to get our kicks somewhere... LOL
 
But the training bit is still confusing even now.
 
See, if you look at the offensive skills, you chose a bonus depending on what kind of troop your commander leads.
So if you wanted to have your leader to lead pikeman you would give a bonus in ... well... pikes.
For swords, a bonus in swords, etc.
 
But when you look at the defensive side. Then you, as far as I read it, (or am I reading it wrong?) have to chose what you want to be good at to defend against. This, to me, is a contradiction in terms of the attack bonuses system.
 
Basically what it is saying to me at the moment is this:
You need xp to lvl the bonus for the trooptype you want your leader to attack with. But you need xp to bonus the lvl of the trooptype your leader is going to defend against!
 
Shouldn't it be either:
You need xp to lvl the bonus for the trooptype/weapon you want your leader to attack with, and you need xp to bonus the trooptype/weapon  that your leader choses to defend with?
 
OR....
 
You need to expend xp on the kind of trooptypes you want your leader to be effective against when he attacks, so maybe 1 point in pikes, 2 in swords, 3 in cavalry, etc) and also the same for the defensive part?
 
I hope i am making sense.  
 
In the situation as it is now, it is easier to lvl your attack strenght, but it needs a lot more xp/time to be able to defend against each troop type.
 
Personally I would prefer the first choise, as that is relatively simple.
 
Just wondering wether I am getting it right, and if so, wether this was a deliberate choice... which I guess it will be  Tongue otherwise our glorious GM's wouldn't have put it into the game. Still... would like to know the reasoning behind it anyway.
 
Thanks
Nahtania, Orcisha from Black Whole
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joekewl View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 19:43
I have had the same issue. It seems to heavily favor attackers and I think defense should work the same\similar as offense...
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KillerPoodle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 20:53
You have to favour the attackers because it's easy to defend a square en masse and impossible to gang together to all attack a square at the same time.
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Nahtania View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 21:20
Ah great thanks Killerpoodle, so basically you think this is indeed orchestrated by the gms like this with a purpose? I indeed see your point in this as well.
 
Starting to make sense now. Would love some gm input to though, but if they think this covers it all, then I'll be fine with that.
 
Again my thanks to you both for your input.
 
Nahtania, Orcisha from Black Whole
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GlyphGryph View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2010 at 23:13
I think the bigger problem is that the troop bonuses seem almost meaningless next to the commanders personal bonuses.

At 1000 troops, all with an attack of, say, 15, putting a level into troop type boosts attack by 1%, assumming all the troops are the same type, results in an increase of 150 attack. Putting a level into personal attack for the commander results in about the same increase, regardless of the number of troops!

In a way, then, the defense boost is better - It is a lot more likely you'll have 1000 assorted troops than 1000 of a certain type, meaning that you can place your defensive commander in charge of all your various troops, and the bonuses still apply. You can use him to fill out gaps in your defenses - if you're in thick forest, you put your bonuses into defense against infantry and spears, for example. If you're on plains, against cavalry.

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HonoredMule View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2010 at 00:13
"I think the bigger problem is that the troop bonuses seem almost meaningless next to the commanders personal bonuses."

That depends hugely upon the quantity of forces you wield.  Personal upgrades are definitely better for starting towns, but if you can mass a few thousand troops, those bonuses will start to really count.  And by the time you have those numbers, you may very well be able to upgrade all of the stats significantly, leaving you to choose whether you want a general army or specialized task force.

Also, in the long run, you're going to have 5 commanders at every city, and often will see no reason not to pair up commanders with single unit-type divisions.
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Akita View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 02:53

One level of heroism-enabled attack upgrade results in the equivalent of adding 6 troops of the same type as the commander, attack-wise. So a L20 commander with 20 levels in heroism will have an attack force equivalent to 121 troops of his own type (so, him plus 120 fictional ones). Times 5 commanders, that's 605 troops (the 5 commanders plus 600 fictional ones).

On the other hand, if you have an army of, say, 4000 units of the same type as the commander, with a *SINGLE* L20 commander with all points into squad attack, you have an equivalent attack power of 4800 units lead by a L0 commander, 195 equivalent troops extra compared to the previous five full-heroism commanders example. And if you also add 4 other commanders with heroism L20, that's 5284 units (compared to 4605 equivalent units if all commanders only trained heroism), for a whooping 679 extra equivalent units.

So, it does matter, but only later on. Early on, heroism all the way, for all you care.



Edited by Akita - 29 Jul 2010 at 02:58
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HonoredMule View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 06:02
Very very few people have 4 thousand troops in total at a single city today.  By the time anyone has 4k troops of one kind anywhere, they'll almost assuredly have the personal and unit-specific division upgrades maxed...probably all of them.

So I agree with your implied conclusion...there's no reason not to go hog-wild on personal attack first.  But I'd take it a step further.  A Marshall with level 10 Heroism has 3,599 attack.  Once those 4 thousand troops are expended against something, you're starting all over with divisional bonus.  But the full benefit of level 10 Heroism (equivalent to 60 extra Marshals) is back in business with a day's barracks production alongside the parallel resurrection of your commander (assuming he died).  So Heroism represents more reusable value as well as more versatile.


Edited by HonoredMule - 29 Jul 2010 at 06:11
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KillerPoodle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 14:59
Akita - your logic is sound but each commander attribute is limited to L10. My calc is that you need 600 units under a given commander for the 1% divisional bonus to equal a single personal level. More than 600 units (per commander) and a single divisional bonus level is better than a single personal level

I concur on leveling personal stats for commanders before divisional with a few exceptions. For example, speed is almost always useful for slow units (swords, spears) and I would not bother leveling attack for a spear unit until I had maxed out everything spears are actually useful for.
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Akita View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 07:52

Heh, whoops, got my mind stuck on L20 buildings and forgot commander skills only go up to 10.

But yeah, you're right, units equivalent in attack power to 600 units of the commander type is the breakeven point between personal attack and squad attack.

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