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Combat API and its use in a Player Run Tourney

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 23:07
I've had a request to explain what this is about as simply as I can, and why we can't just "do what is being asked"; so here goes...

I believe the people arguing for a 'reduced' dataset are coming from the erroneous position that they somehow 'own' the data from a combat that involved them, and that they can choose what happens to it.

In any combat at least two participants get the data - and maybe more, depending on how many defenders are on the square.  

If any one of those participants chooses to share the data further with other people - by forwarding the combat report email - they may do so.  There's nothing to stop them.

Combat data by definition cannot be "owned" by a single player, and a single player cannot decide what happens to that data.

The system that Cilcain is requesting we implement is, I'm afraid to say, entirely pointless - and let me explain why.

The system we're being asked to implement is that players have a restricted API key that allows players (through checkboxes) to choose what data is returned by their API key.

This data might consist of things like the town that the troops are from, the casualties taken, the troop types, the commanders names, the troops remaining etc.  For the purposes of a hypothetical, let's say there are these 5 pieces of data only, labelled Data1 through Data5.

And let's say we implement the system that Cilcain is requesting.

The scenario: 
  • An attacker (Player1) arrives at a square, where there are 4 defenders (Player2, Player3, Player4 & Player5) on it.

  • Player1 has set up his API key, using the checkboxes, to only reveal Data1 & Data2
  • Player2 has set up his API key, using the checkboxes, to only reveal Data2, Data3 & Data4
  • Player3 has set up his API key, using the checkboxes, to only reveal Data5
  • Player4 doesn't care, and is sharing his full combat API key to reveal all pieces of Data1 thru Data5
  • Player5 doesn't want anyone to know what happened in the combat, and has chosen not to share any data or APIkeys at all
It should be clear, at this point, that it fundamentally doesn't matter who wanted what.  

All the data has been shared, on the wishes of - or against - all of the players involved in the combat. 

Even if Player4 wasn't on the square... all the data would have been shared anyway!

I hope this outlines why the argument for restricting data is logically incoherent: there is no 'ownership' of the data.  Any player involved in any combat (tournament or otherwise) can do whatever they want with the data from the combat report, and can share it all with whomsoever they like - and have been able to since the game began.

Regards,

SC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahaut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 23:00

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

So... you're absolutely *fine* with the 'secret' data being shared with - or aggregated by - anyone in the game, entirely out of your control... but only so long as it's done manually via igms or via copy'n'pasting each individual xml file attached to each email into an xml aggregation system.

Please stop with the emotive and sarcastic "secret" data digs. Most alliances especially military ones have thinsg they would prefer to not be widely known, nothing new there.

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

I guess this is where I believe your argument for a reduced API dataset loses traction; especially now as you're specifically making it an imposition on all the other players in this tournament as well - ie there's no point in your alliance using a restricted dataset API key unless all the tournament participants do... so we, the developers, must force all the tournament participants to abandon use of the Full API key for combats on tournament squares in order to satisfy your requirements to participate.

And what you are saying is our members concerns are to be ignored. Whereas a reduced subset will make no difference to anyone else whatsoever.

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Your argument is, fundamentally, "it's not the data we object to, it's that the system is too automated - and we'd be fine if it was made more manual"... and I'm afraid to say that's not an argument that really holds much water.

Incorrect, our concerns are simply that there is too much data, most of it completely unnecessary to the effective operation of a KoTHT. As Cilcain himself explained if a player makes a personal decision to share data by whatever means - it is his choice - if he chooses to copy paste he can delete data he doesn't want the recipient to see.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tacardi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 20:24
Thank you GM Stormcrow Star
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 19:46
Originally posted by Tacardi Tacardi wrote:

I would like to know "IF or WHEN" the coding will be changed? and if so will there be like another button to generate the tourney API code?

I'm a co-lead in TCOL and we are starting to get our members coordinated and providing the needed API code

Thanks
Tacardi 
Within the next week, Tacardi.  afaik there is at least a month before the tournament begins, so there's still good time.

Regards,

SC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 19:40

Hi Cilcain,

Thanks for getting back to me.  

Originally posted by Cilcain Cilcain wrote:

Firstly, it enables intelligence gathering to be done automatically, and at volume – this is easily then extended into automation that populates a large database of intelligence outside of the perimeters of Illyriad.  The action of sharing information then becomes less of a ‘role play’ thing – which essentially the game is – to a coding thing.  The owner of data also loses the ability to cherry pick which data to forward on to others, as the API gives access to all data.

Many alliances have used the Full API key and automated parsers, for many years - precisely for the purpose of collating alliance-wide (and even confed-wide) intelligence purposes.  It saves all the members the hassle of copying and pasting every combat email into a text parser, which would achieve the same effect - but with more hassle.
Originally posted by Cilcain Cilcain wrote:

All you say regarding in-game battle reports is, of course, true.  A participant in a battle gets a report (either complete or partial), and is able to share this with whomever they like by forwarding the report.

This is fine, and it translates into the ‘fantasy Illyriad universe’ quite well as “word of the battle spread far and wide” type stories.

So... you're absolutely *fine* with the 'secret' data being shared with - or aggregated by - anyone in the game, entirely out of your control... but only so long as it's done manually via igms or via copy'n'pasting each individual xml file attached to each email into an xml aggregation system.

I guess this is where I believe your argument for a reduced API dataset loses traction; especially now as you're specifically making it an imposition on all the other players in this tournament as well - ie there's no point in your alliance using a restricted dataset API key unless all the tournament participants do... so we, the developers, must force all the tournament participants to abandon use of the Full API key for combats on tournament squares in order to satisfy your requirements to participate.

Your argument is, fundamentally, "it's not the data we object to, it's that the system is too automated - and we'd be fine if it was made more manual"... and I'm afraid to say that's not an argument that really holds much water.

Regards,

SC

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tacardi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 18:41
I would like to know "IF or WHEN" the coding will be changed? and if so will there be like another button to generate the tourney API code?

I'm a co-lead in TCOL and we are starting to get our members coordinated and providing the needed API code

Thanks
Tacardi 


Edited by Tacardi - 14 Apr 2016 at 18:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cilcain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 12:09
Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Sorry if I'm being obtuse:  I genuinely want to understand the objection to the API and the XML, as it currently stands.

SC

SC,

 

Sorry for the delayed response to your post – but I’ve been attempting to be on holiday for the last few days J

All you say regarding in-game battle reports is, of course, true.  A participant in a battle gets a report (either complete or partial), and is able to share this with whomever they like by forwarding the report.

This is fine, and it translates into the ‘fantasy Illyriad universe’ quite well as “word of the battle spread far and wide” type stories.

The use of the current API in my mind changes this somewhat.

Firstly, it enables intelligence gathering to be done automatically, and at volume – this is easily then extended into automation that populates a large database of intelligence outside of the perimeters of Illyriad.  The action of sharing information then becomes less of a ‘role play’ thing – which essentially the game is – to a coding thing.  The owner of data also loses the ability to cherry pick which data to forward on to others, as the API gives access to all data.

Secondly, the use of the current Combat API for a player run tourney means that players must share this data with players outside of their alliance with whom they have probably had no previous dealings.  Your example of forwarding battle reports is generally done within the confines of an alliance – or more specifically, shared with specific leadership accounts within an alliance.  On the fewer occasions when reports are shared outside of an alliance, they tend to be on a battle by battle basis (see the first point above).

Thirdly, the current Combat API provides more information (or rather, the same information in more scenarios) than in-game battle reports do.  Currently, if I reinforce a square occupied by my Allies, Confeds or NAPs, I just get a report stating that my army has arrived, and the name of the player with the earliest occupying army.  However, using the API, I get an XML that details all of the armies on the square (including troop types and quantities) – i.e. you can scout without Scouts, even when the occupying armies have huge contingents of defending scouts themselves.  The same applies for reinforcing a city.

 

I am not saying that the current Combat API should be retired – I think there are a great many good uses for it.  What I am saying, is that for the specific use case of a player run tourney, the current Combat API is not suitable, and that we need an API specific to this use case.  This tourney API should not only be tourney square specific, but should also filter out some data elements so that it doesn’t become a tool for intelligence gathering via the coder’s back door.  It wouldn’t require a new XML schema – just an API policy or data masking rule on the existing schema.

 

C


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Digioso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 09:34
Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

You only need one player in an alliance to be occypying the square with api key for the alliance to get the occupy time. All other players can just attack and reinforce said player. Trying to punish players and alliances is just going to result in people hitting tournament squares to mess with the tournament. I for one will not be giving my api but will be reinforcing the square my alliance goes for. If that gets my alliance penalized you can be assured I will start to hit other squares just for fun then.


As long as the script can get the information it doesn't matter how many players are involved that shared the combat key.
If none of the players who participated in the combat shared their API keys the combat cannot be tracked.
If only one player per alliance shares their key this would mean that this player has to participate in ALL combats and he also has to be the first player to occupy any square.
Because if another player that didn't share the key is the first player on a square it cannot be tracked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kodabear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2016 at 22:11
Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

You only need one player in an alliance to be occypying the square with api key for the alliance to get the occupy time. All other players can just attack and reinforce said player. Trying to punish players and alliances is just going to result in people hitting tournament squares to mess with the tournament. I for one will not be giving my api but will be reinforcing the square my alliance goes for. If that gets my alliance penalized you can be assured I will start to hit other squares just for fun then.

Just to be clear the only way for a whole alliance to be disqualified is by cheating (having more then one alliance hold a Tournament Squares). Now if no one from an alliance end up giving me a Tournament  API key and wins a sq they will still  prizes for the sq but if they won 1st place in the whole Tournament they wont get any medals (because i will be giving medals based on API key given to me). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lagavulin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2016 at 20:55
sounds more than fair to me
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