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jcx 
Forum Warrior
Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Location: Tallimar
Status: Offline
Points: 281
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 Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 09:25 |
War does not determined who is RIGHT - only who is LEFT. -Bertrand Russell Keep blaming on H? or its leadership? We are all warriors here, we came here to fight. So let them come and lets WAR. What are you afraid of? Don't blame them if they won't accept any surrender terms. If you can accept losing - then you can't WIN.This war opens opportunity for new learning experience, strategies and policies that are critical for the alliance future. We lose cities - we can rebuild them, we lose troops - we can retrain them. Even if you are sieged back to the newbie ring there's always a place for you there. 
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Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day.
jcx in H? | orcboy in H?
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Mahaut
Wordsmith
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Location: North West UK
Status: Offline
Points: 173
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 08:20 |
 KillerPoodle wrote:
No he didn't. He faked a surrender with no intention of keeping to the peace he had agreed merely as a way to gain breathing space to get revenge.
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KP How can you possibly know that? The only way you could possibly know what someone was really thinking is if you were telepathic. You are projecting your own possible motivations onto someone who clearly is not you and of whose motives you can have no real knowledge . Therefore that was just an insult and can obviously be totally ignored.
However it does conveniently lead on to me answer to one of Deranzin's questions........
Deranzin wrote:
Suppose that H? surrendered two days after I got wrecked, what would you say to me, and other such members, if you were an H? Director?
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If such a hypothetical, and apparently extremely unlikely , event occurred then what I would say to you would simply be "Because we don't want to see every other player in our alliance end up like you." Not every decision leadership has to make will be popular with every member, having to soothe ruffled feathers and point out the greater good for others is part and parcel of leadership. If you think being an alliance leader doesn't make you unpopular now and again then you're in the wrong line of leisure activity. I'm actually not sure who, in their right minds, would actually want the job!!!! 
Edited by Mahaut - 24 Mar 2014 at 09:04
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 01:46 |
Caconafyx wrote:
It's what Hath did. He swallowed his pride after the contrived Consone War.
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No he didn't. He faked a surrender with no intention of keeping to the peace he had agreed merely as a way to gain breathing space to get revenge.
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Myzel
Wordsmith
Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 101
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Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 23:38 |
Here's a few statements that I think are true for both sides of the conflict: - We're all basically good people. - We're all assholes sometimes. - We all have our reasons to keep fighting. - None of those reasons are right or wrong, or need to be proven right or wrong. - We will keep trying to beat each other senseless. (Until someone says they've had enough.)
Edited by Myzel - 23 Mar 2014 at 23:38
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Caconafyx
Greenhorn
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Location: Stamford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 87
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Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 23:18 |
Deranzin,
You talk about good honest leadership. Is it really that good for leaders to continue to fight a war with only one inevitable outcome?
I've been in this game for close to three years, I have run or participated in running several training alliances as well as EE itself and so I'd like to think I know a little about good and honest leadership.
A good leader would have fought tooth and nail to see that you were kept out of the war, what with you being so far away from the H? motherland, even to the point of insisting that you temporarily leave the alliance for your own sake.
A good leader would not continue the war knowing that it can only lead to your total annihilation for no other reason than pride.
Instead a good leader, one that cared about his/her alliance and its members would say enough is enough. Stop the war, bow out with your dignity intact and your armies in tatters and rebuild. Regrow your alliance, help members with resource and advice and rise like a phoenix from the ashes.
It's what Hath did. He swallowed his pride after the contrived Consone War. A war that was engineered by H? Yes it was a bitter pill to swallow. Yes, we had those that wanted to continue the war, but ours is an alliance of lions led by lions and not donkeys. You brought us to our knees 12 months ago amidst mockery and derision but we came back stronger, oh how we came back stronger.
A year on I can look at our alliance with pride. Yes the gold demanded meant that we had to borrow it from other places. Yes we struggled to find T2 resources to satisfy the surrender terms having fought the good fight for half a year, and yes it was painful to face the humiliation of not just losing towns but having to hand them over to the "enemy" who in my case paraded it around like a war trophy.
But a year on we are bigger, we are stronger and that is what I would urge for you and your allies. We may have mistaken your resilience for stubbornness and your prowess for hubris but why not show us and the rest of the game your nobility, your honour and your dignity and bring about an end to this war and help forge a new and improved era for Illyriad?
That to me is what a good leader would do.
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The Duke
Forum Warrior
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 22:43 |
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Deranzin- I read it just fine, and thank you for underlying that for me- I still support what I wrote, and was referencing a post made by KP in a different thread.
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"Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives."
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Halcyon
Forum Warrior
Joined: 17 Aug 2012
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 360
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Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 22:14 |
Kumomoto wrote:
We actually stopped one of our allies, DARK, from doing so...
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As I already explained in a previous answer to KP, you stopped nothing.
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 19:27 |
The Duke wrote:
To apply the same rule of thumb that H? applied then- that we are doing now- If you choose not to surrender then you will lose more cities. Period. Now you(like the alliances in Consone) can stop the bleeding as soon as you see fit by surrendering. If not - you will lose more. You want to talk about how you were compassionate and put yourself up but the fact remains you bring this upon yourself by Choosing to not come to terms. Since you do have a choice but have chosen not to take it- Stop going on and on about how the other side is so bad when in fact the problem lies in H? leadership being stubborn and full of pride. Stop acting like this is the first time ppl quit the game cause they were sieged. NC did this on a number of occasions. RES has done the same. Place blame where it belongs- and own up to your faults. |
You didn't even read an inch of this whole thread did you .?. One also has to wonder how sermon-like proclamations of arrogance (since they ignore everything that is being said in this topic with no apparent justification) are supposed to fit in a, so far, very civilized discussion btw ... Last but not least, the bolded and underlined part has also been said in numerous occasions in real life, but I'd rather let the educated readers make the historical references themselves and spare this topic from being closed and me from being banned ! 
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  Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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The Duke
Forum Warrior
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 19:14 |
Kumomoto wrote:
The bottom line is... Rhetoric aside, when we conducted the Consone War, we moved our targeting during the war to make sure enemy accounts didn't lose more than 3 accounts and you all have not done so...
We tried to be compassionate in our war conduct and you have had no such compunction. So all this speculation of what H? might have done if you hadn't surrendered is just that... speculation.
The fact is we avoided killing more than 3 cities per account during the war, often times when it was not the best military option for us to do... You (and we) do not know whether we would have taken it further if you refused to surrender. We simply never got there. You all surrendered. So please, please stop trying to project this behavior upon us. We never behaved like this. We never killed people off like this. We actually stopped one of our allies, DARK, from doing so... So please, please stop morally equating the extinction event that is this war with what we have done in the past, because what is happening now is unprecedented in the history of Illy...
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To apply the same rule of thumb that H? applied then- that we are doing now- If you choose not to surrender then you will lose more cities. Period. Now you(like the alliances in Consone) can stop the bleeding as soon as you see fit by surrendering. If not - you will lose more. You want to talk about how you were compassionate and put yourself up but the fact remains you bring this upon yourself by Choosing to not come to terms. Since you do have a choice but have chosen not to take it- Stop going on and on about how the other side is so bad when in fact the problem lies in H? leadership being stubborn and full of pride. Stop acting like this is the first time ppl quit the game cause they were sieged. NC did this on a number of occasions. RES has done the same. Place blame where it belongs- and own up to your faults.
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"Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives."
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 11:24 |
BellusRex wrote:
Deranzin, I can not like something and yet still recognize the necessity of it. I don't like having to siege multiple cities from a player, but again, surrender, same as H? has always told everyone else. Going on about it only increases our resolve to not be dictated to again. We learned that from H? as well. |
Well, there is something you obviously missed on those things you learned from H? and one of them is that it is NOT NECESSARY to extinguish players in order to win over an alliance ... and the living proof is actually you guys ...  So, no, there is no proof or evidence that there was any such "necessity" with which you just had to compromise ... it was an active choice of tactics and you should own up to it, and not a necessary measure forced upon you ... I'll say it again to be perfectly clear : Honest and direct posts like Mahaut's I perfectly respect and even enjoy ... posts like yours though do not belong in that category ...
BellusRex wrote:
I'm fairly sure i'm done with this whole topic; it's just tail chasing. The basic bottom line is if you don't like the war, leave the war. |
No argument there ... especially if you add the obvious continuation which is "and if you do like the war and stay in it, please do not pretend otherwise"
BellusRex wrote:
If you are too proud to accept terms, so be it. We were lectured endlessly about pride. This is not directed at you personally, you made your choice and stuck to it. |
And so did many others and I insist that pride has nothing to do with it ...
BellusRex wrote:
The only thing I'm interested in is what those we are still fighting consider reasonable terms to end the war, and to my knowledge, none have ever been proffered. |
I cannot speak about others, but now that I am destroyed it is obvious that no terms could ever satisfy me, because I have nothing to lose from now on ... as someone else eloquently pointed out, this is the whole basis of surrendering, to make the opponent believe that he would be better off by stopping the fight ... once you corner someone on the point of no return, the whole idea loses all its meaning ... Supposing that if even for some moment our side wanted to surrender, what would they say to people like me .?. Suppose that H? surrendered two days after I got wrecked, what would you say to me, and other such members, if you were an H? Director .?. Have you ever stopped to think about that .?. No, you probably haven't, this is why you guys keep taking about silly things like pride where it is a simple matter of good honest leadership ... and filling your opponents with people who have nothing to lose, is just not working the way you think it is ... On a very funny note someone sent me a very friendly IGM urging me to surrender when I was down to 4 cities and two of them were at that moment under the raze pop limit and I was like "dude, surrender and salvage what .?. 2 cities out of 10 .?. " ... I was already doing that without surrendering ...
Edited by Deranzin - 23 Mar 2014 at 11:37
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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Carried over from Nokigon's thread
