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Sir A 
Wordsmith
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 121
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 Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 17:01 |
This whole debate has really gotten way out of hand. Everyone is trying to find dirt on everyone else and trying to make themselves look like the good guys. This is a war and both sides think they are right. There's no point in trying to convince someone that they are the "bad" guys because they are not going to listen.
If you can't defend your cities then you can expect to lose them. As long as you are at war that makes you a target. And if your allies can't help you protect your cities then you should probably consider exiting the war. Or you can stay, that is totally up to you, but don't expect your enemies to stop attacking you. In past wars and in this one individuals have left their alliances because they were in enemy territory and knew that losing their cities was inevitable. But a lot of players in this war will not surrender no matter what, and I can respect that. But it also has consequences that most of these players have not accepted.
So please stop trying to make the other side look like bullies, because they aren't sieging your cities for no reason. You are at war with them. Their objective is to destroy your cities until you come to terms or have nothing left. It really is that simple and always has been like that.
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Caconafyx
Greenhorn
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Location: Stamford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 87
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Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 16:10 |
KP, Harmless? has repeatedly acknowledged that they had a spy in EE during the Consone War. How do we know that it wasn't your spy that broke the ceasefire that Hath and Turgor had negotiated with you guys just to give you the pretext of continuing the war?
Given your alliance's propensity for spin, propaganda and underhand tactics, how can we honestly be expected to assume that you did not manipulate those events?
Deranzin. We removed Kleavor from EE at the beginning of the Consone War as his cities were close to the H? heartland at the time. The same goes for Bert Almighty.... just saying. |
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 12:09 |
 The Duke wrote:
Deranzin- I like the way you twist things to make yourself look better. |
Hmm ... I am not looking any better by addressing your posts ... quite the contrary ...
The Duke wrote:
H? taught you well in that regard. |
I didn't know that H? has been offering English teaching classes ...  The idea that I might know how to have a good command of the English language prior to joining the game is so weird for you that you imagine that there are English courses on forum posting provided by other alliances .?. Amazing imagination ! 
The Duke wrote:
This will also be the last time I address any post made by you as you have become the new forum troll. |
Of the two of us, you alone are the one that : - Made personal attacks and degrading comments
- alluded that the others are ignorant and you are knowledgeable, without of course providing any proof whatsoever
- Tried to blame a whole alliance for the comments of one of its members outside their leadership
- Taunted me to leave the game
And you have the audacity to call me a troll after all that .?. ahahhhahaahah
The Duke wrote:
Anyone that can read can see what my words are- you can see they havent been edited-
and they can also see your ignorance in the way you try and twist
things. Good luck in rebuilding. Try not to "run away from the game"
like apparently so many others have had to do- since according to H?
propaganda machine thats the way the war has gone. |
That is why I quoted them ...  ... apart from that, indeed, I have no fear that the impartial readers of this forum will misjudge me, nor you ...
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  Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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The Duke
Forum Warrior
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 23:51 |
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Deranzin- I like the way you twist things to make yourself look better. H? taught you well in that regard. This will also be the last time I address any post made by you as you have become the new forum troll. Anyone that can read can see what my words are- you can see they havent been edited- and they can also see your ignorance in the way you try and twist things. Good luck in rebuilding. Try not to "run away from the game" like apparently so many others have had to do- since according to H? propaganda machine thats the way the war has gone.
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"Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives."
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 22:21 |
The Duke wrote:
Theres no backpedal - simply stating the same tactics you have used before are now being played back to you- probably more harsh, |
Probably .?. Sheesh, you are not really good in dealing with facts eh .?. **hints in my signature  **
The Duke wrote:
but such things are bound to happen when you were the largest alliance in illy for years. |
How nice of you to admit that ...
The Duke wrote:
W.e I choose to say and do in the sandbox is done on my own accord- Ditto is just the guy you need to talk to if you decide you wanna keep a few more cities |
Well, you should hope he doesn't notice what you say because you shouldn't have skipped your diplomacy classes dude because in 3 lines you managed to : - Ignore reality and everything written in this thread
- Admitted that a power-grab against the no1 alliance for years was inevitable
- Disrespected your chosen leader by keeping responsibility for your words, but dumping responsibility for your actions and generally razing cities fully on him
I admit that in three lines of text, I couldn't have done better ...
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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The Duke
Forum Warrior
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 21:58 |
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Theres no backpedal - simply stating the same tactics you have used before are now being played back to you- probably more harsh, but such things are bound to happen when you were the largest alliance in illy for years. W.e I choose to say and do in the sandbox is done on my own accord- Ditto is just the guy you need to talk to if you decide you wanna keep a few more cities
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"Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives."
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 21:54 |
Mahaut wrote:
You could have spoken to us and to vcrow, said you were moving and asked for time to do so. You chose not to.
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Deranzin wrote:
Your policy concerning that matter is probably
different than vCrows ... you might have let some of my cities go, but
vCrows wouldn't imho ... |
Well we didn't have to wait more than a couple of days and wham, vCrows rush to confirm what I say ...
They are even hunting me half the world away to keep me from claiming an abandoned town ... ... those guys are so much fun  , and brave too ... now I want another "honor", "nobility" and "dignity" filled post from their side and I will go to sleep in utter bliss ... please deliver soon ! It is already midnight here ! 
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 16:42 |
The Duke wrote:
To apply the same rule of thumb that H? applied then- that we are doing now- If you choose not to surrender then you will lose more cities. Period. Now you(like the alliances in Consone) can stop the bleeding as soon as you see fit by surrendering. If not - you will lose more. |
It cannot be the same rule of thumb since you have already wiped out many accounts. But regardless - nice backpedal - if we keep this up for a few more months you guys will be paying us to end the war. BTW - did Ditto give you permission to make this statement?
Edited by KillerPoodle - 24 Mar 2014 at 16:45
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 16:41 |
Mahaut wrote:
KP How can you possibly know that? The only way you could possibly know what someone was really thinking is if you were telepathic. |
If it looks like a duck, quacks in GC like a duck and makes self-righteous posts about revenge like a duck - then it's probably a vengeful duck.
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 09:37 |
Caconafyx wrote:
Deranzin,
You talk about good honest leadership. Is it really that good for leaders to continue to fight a war with only one inevitable outcome? |
Good honest leadership is not about winning or losing and it is immaterial from the outcome ... it is about making the right decisions at the right time, which will serve the goals of everyone involved better. In this case, we do not have leaders forcing anyone follow them unwillingly, but we have a unified group with a very distinct belief that the current course of action is the only right one and with every account going down, you add more to that resolve ... Indeed, you, had you been a director of H? can you answer the question I posed in the previous post .?. What would you say to me if you surrendered AFTER I lost most of my account .?. I am very interested in this question, because I know that answering it strikes to the core of the important issue "what is a leader for" ...
Caconafyx wrote:
I've been in this game for close to three years, I have run or participated in running several training alliances as well as EE itself and so I'd like to think I know a little about good and honest leadership. |
I have not been part of any alliance leadership, but I speak on matter of leadership and command, in my brief experience of commanding heterogenous groups of people in a RL army as a second Lieutenant ... And I'll tell you the obvious thing, that the stakes being pixels in a game, make leadership much easier ...
Caconafyx wrote:
A good leader would have fought tooth and nail to see that you were kept out of the war, what with you being so far away from the H? motherland, even to the point of insisting that you temporarily leave the alliance for your own sake. |
Well, they fought "tooth and nail" to see that everyone was kept out of the war and that was quite good enough for me ... not leaving the alliance was my decision to make and not theirs ... apart from that I think we all know that just getting out of an alliance does not take you out of the war, especially if you were an active participant like me ...
Caconafyx wrote:
A good leader would not continue the war knowing that it can only lead to your total annihilation for no other reason than pride. |
I have explained many times, in this thread and others, why pride has nothing to do with it ... if you want to keep tossing the same thing around over and over again, at least to bother to offer a counter-argument instead of just proclaiming your opinion that it is "simple pride" ...
Caconafyx wrote:
Instead a good leader, one that cared about his/her alliance and its members would say enough is enough. Stop the war, bow out with your dignity intact and your armies in tatters and rebuild. Regrow your alliance, help members with resource and advice and rise like a phoenix from the ashes. |
You incorrectly assume that the current course of action is not a unanimous decision by everyone involved ...
Caconafyx wrote:
It's what Hath did. He swallowed his pride after the
contrived Consone War. A war that was engineered by H? Yes it was a
bitter pill to swallow. Yes, we had those that wanted to continue the
war, but ours is an alliance of lions led by lions and not donkeys. You
brought us to our knees 12 months ago amidst mockery and derision but we
came back stronger, oh how we came back stronger.
A
year on I can look at our alliance with pride. Yes the gold demanded
meant that we had to borrow it from other places. Yes we struggled to
find T2 resources to satisfy the surrender terms having fought the good
fight for half a year, and yes it was painful to face the humiliation of
not just losing towns but having to hand them over to the "enemy" who
in my case paraded it around like a war trophy.
But a year on we are bigger, we are stronger and that is what I would urge for you and your allies. We may have mistaken your resilience for stubbornness and your prowess for hubris but why not show us and the rest of the game your nobility, your honour and your dignity and bring about an end to this war and help forge a new and improved era for Illyriad? |
Why, this is exactly the reason we keep fighting on now ... because what you are in fact urging us to do here (and there are other posts in other topics) is to play the game for another year, just like you did, to fight another day ... this is not a peace plan for a "a new and improved era for Illyriad" (speaking of which, what does this "new era" include .?. Do you expect people to sign up for it without knowing what it is .?. ), but the quite old "live and fight another day" plan which has nothing to do with "nobility, honour and dignity" imho ...
No, we fight today and that is our "nobility, honour and dignity", because not fighting means that we do not only surrender our troops, but our ideals as well ... or at least that is what I think ...
In the end of the day, I will go with Socrates' estimation on the matter more than any other person's ... he too could have escaped death, and quite easily too, but he sat there in his prison and drank the poison ... was it pride that made him do it .?. Most certainly not ... Read up on it : http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/crito.html it is very interesting (I might make it a topic, hmm  )
In his apology he said :
"Someone will say: And are you not ashamed, Socrates, of a course of life
which is likely to bring you to an untimely end? To him I may fairly
answer:
There you are mistaken: a man who is good for anything
ought not to calculate the chance of living or dying; he ought only to
consider whether in doing anything he is doing right or wrong - acting
the part of a good man or of a bad."
And this is imho all there is to it in this war, as well ...
Mahaut wrote:
KP How can you possibly know that? The only
way you could possibly know what someone was really thinking is if you
were telepathic. You are projecting your own possible
motivations onto someone who clearly is not you and of whose motives you
can have no real knowledge . Therefore that was just an insult and can obviously be totally ignored. |
I
do not think that Hathaldir would find that insulting ... besides it
doesn't need much telepathy when there was a known post of him claiming
exactly that ...
Mahaut wrote:
If such a hypothetical, and apparently extremely unlikely  , event
occurred then what I would say to you would simply be "Because we don't
want to see every other player in our alliance end up like you." Not every decision leadership has to make will be popular with every member, having to soothe ruffled feathers and point out the greater good for others is part and parcel of leadership. |
True ... but what happens if all members do not agree with such a decision .?.
Also, a good amount of leadership, indeed the main stress in the whole matter, is that you will have to abide by your decisions and still be a ruler/leader in the next day after a decision was made ...
And
therein lies the question : After you've sold off one of your members
to gain safety for some others, then what credibility is left for you as
a leader .?. Which member will not think "hey, that poor fellow could
have been me" .?.
Dividing the people you lead into groups
that "pay the price" and groups that "reap the harvest" is the most
surefire tactic to not be a leader in the next day ... 
Mahaut wrote:
If
you think being an alliance leader doesn't make you unpopular now and
again then you're in the wrong line of leisure activity. I'm actually
not sure who, in their right minds, would actually want the job!!!! 
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hahaah not me !
jcx wrote:
War does not determined who is RIGHT - only who is LEFT. -Bertrand Russell
Keep blaming on H? or its leadership? We are all warriors here, we came here to fight. So let them come and lets WAR.
What are you afraid of?
Don't blame them if they won't accept any surrender terms. If you can accept losing - then you can't WIN.
This war opens opportunity for new learning experience, strategies and policies that are critical for the alliance future.
We
lose cities - we can rebuild them, we lose troops - we can retrain
them. Even if you are sieged back to the newbie ring there's always a
place for you there.
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I
totally agree ... I do not understand why some people insist on
sugar-coating everything they do ... if you shouldn't take risks in a
game, hey, when and where should you .?. 
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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Carried over from Nokigon's thread
