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The Duke 
Forum Warrior
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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 Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 22:43 |
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Deranzin- I read it just fine, and thank you for underlying that for me- I still support what I wrote, and was referencing a post made by KP in a different thread.
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"Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives."
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Caconafyx
Greenhorn
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Location: Stamford, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 87
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Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 23:18 |
Deranzin,
You talk about good honest leadership. Is it really that good for leaders to continue to fight a war with only one inevitable outcome?
I've been in this game for close to three years, I have run or participated in running several training alliances as well as EE itself and so I'd like to think I know a little about good and honest leadership.
A good leader would have fought tooth and nail to see that you were kept out of the war, what with you being so far away from the H? motherland, even to the point of insisting that you temporarily leave the alliance for your own sake.
A good leader would not continue the war knowing that it can only lead to your total annihilation for no other reason than pride.
Instead a good leader, one that cared about his/her alliance and its members would say enough is enough. Stop the war, bow out with your dignity intact and your armies in tatters and rebuild. Regrow your alliance, help members with resource and advice and rise like a phoenix from the ashes.
It's what Hath did. He swallowed his pride after the contrived Consone War. A war that was engineered by H? Yes it was a bitter pill to swallow. Yes, we had those that wanted to continue the war, but ours is an alliance of lions led by lions and not donkeys. You brought us to our knees 12 months ago amidst mockery and derision but we came back stronger, oh how we came back stronger.
A year on I can look at our alliance with pride. Yes the gold demanded meant that we had to borrow it from other places. Yes we struggled to find T2 resources to satisfy the surrender terms having fought the good fight for half a year, and yes it was painful to face the humiliation of not just losing towns but having to hand them over to the "enemy" who in my case paraded it around like a war trophy.
But a year on we are bigger, we are stronger and that is what I would urge for you and your allies. We may have mistaken your resilience for stubbornness and your prowess for hubris but why not show us and the rest of the game your nobility, your honour and your dignity and bring about an end to this war and help forge a new and improved era for Illyriad?
That to me is what a good leader would do.
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Myzel
Wordsmith
Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 101
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Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 23:38 |
Here's a few statements that I think are true for both sides of the conflict: - We're all basically good people. - We're all assholes sometimes. - We all have our reasons to keep fighting. - None of those reasons are right or wrong, or need to be proven right or wrong. - We will keep trying to beat each other senseless. (Until someone says they've had enough.)
Edited by Myzel - 23 Mar 2014 at 23:38
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 01:46 |
 Caconafyx wrote:
It's what Hath did. He swallowed his pride after the contrived Consone War.
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No he didn't. He faked a surrender with no intention of keeping to the peace he had agreed merely as a way to gain breathing space to get revenge.
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Mahaut
Wordsmith
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Location: North West UK
Status: Offline
Points: 173
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 08:20 |
KillerPoodle wrote:
No he didn't. He faked a surrender with no intention of keeping to the peace he had agreed merely as a way to gain breathing space to get revenge.
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KP How can you possibly know that? The only way you could possibly know what someone was really thinking is if you were telepathic. You are projecting your own possible motivations onto someone who clearly is not you and of whose motives you can have no real knowledge . Therefore that was just an insult and can obviously be totally ignored.
However it does conveniently lead on to me answer to one of Deranzin's questions........
Deranzin wrote:
Suppose that H? surrendered two days after I got wrecked, what would you say to me, and other such members, if you were an H? Director?
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If such a hypothetical, and apparently extremely unlikely  , event occurred then what I would say to you would simply be "Because we don't want to see every other player in our alliance end up like you." Not every decision leadership has to make will be popular with every member, having to soothe ruffled feathers and point out the greater good for others is part and parcel of leadership. If you think being an alliance leader doesn't make you unpopular now and again then you're in the wrong line of leisure activity. I'm actually not sure who, in their right minds, would actually want the job!!!! 
Edited by Mahaut - 24 Mar 2014 at 09:04
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jcx
Forum Warrior
Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Location: Tallimar
Status: Offline
Points: 281
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 09:25 |
War does not determined who is RIGHT - only who is LEFT. -Bertrand Russell Keep blaming on H? or its leadership? We are all warriors here, we came here to fight. So let them come and lets WAR. What are you afraid of? Don't blame them if they won't accept any surrender terms. If you can accept losing - then you can't WIN.This war opens opportunity for new learning experience, strategies and policies that are critical for the alliance future. We lose cities - we can rebuild them, we lose troops - we can retrain them. Even if you are sieged back to the newbie ring there's always a place for you there.
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Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day.
jcx in H? | orcboy in H?
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 09:37 |
Caconafyx wrote:
Deranzin,
You talk about good honest leadership. Is it really that good for leaders to continue to fight a war with only one inevitable outcome? |
Good honest leadership is not about winning or losing and it is immaterial from the outcome ... it is about making the right decisions at the right time, which will serve the goals of everyone involved better. In this case, we do not have leaders forcing anyone follow them unwillingly, but we have a unified group with a very distinct belief that the current course of action is the only right one and with every account going down, you add more to that resolve ... Indeed, you, had you been a director of H? can you answer the question I posed in the previous post .?. What would you say to me if you surrendered AFTER I lost most of my account .?. I am very interested in this question, because I know that answering it strikes to the core of the important issue "what is a leader for" ...
Caconafyx wrote:
I've been in this game for close to three years, I have run or participated in running several training alliances as well as EE itself and so I'd like to think I know a little about good and honest leadership. |
I have not been part of any alliance leadership, but I speak on matter of leadership and command, in my brief experience of commanding heterogenous groups of people in a RL army as a second Lieutenant ... And I'll tell you the obvious thing, that the stakes being pixels in a game, make leadership much easier ...
Caconafyx wrote:
A good leader would have fought tooth and nail to see that you were kept out of the war, what with you being so far away from the H? motherland, even to the point of insisting that you temporarily leave the alliance for your own sake. |
Well, they fought "tooth and nail" to see that everyone was kept out of the war and that was quite good enough for me ... not leaving the alliance was my decision to make and not theirs ... apart from that I think we all know that just getting out of an alliance does not take you out of the war, especially if you were an active participant like me ...
Caconafyx wrote:
A good leader would not continue the war knowing that it can only lead to your total annihilation for no other reason than pride. |
I have explained many times, in this thread and others, why pride has nothing to do with it ... if you want to keep tossing the same thing around over and over again, at least to bother to offer a counter-argument instead of just proclaiming your opinion that it is "simple pride" ...
Caconafyx wrote:
Instead a good leader, one that cared about his/her alliance and its members would say enough is enough. Stop the war, bow out with your dignity intact and your armies in tatters and rebuild. Regrow your alliance, help members with resource and advice and rise like a phoenix from the ashes. |
You incorrectly assume that the current course of action is not a unanimous decision by everyone involved ... 
Caconafyx wrote:
It's what Hath did. He swallowed his pride after the
contrived Consone War. A war that was engineered by H? Yes it was a
bitter pill to swallow. Yes, we had those that wanted to continue the
war, but ours is an alliance of lions led by lions and not donkeys. You
brought us to our knees 12 months ago amidst mockery and derision but we
came back stronger, oh how we came back stronger.
A
year on I can look at our alliance with pride. Yes the gold demanded
meant that we had to borrow it from other places. Yes we struggled to
find T2 resources to satisfy the surrender terms having fought the good
fight for half a year, and yes it was painful to face the humiliation of
not just losing towns but having to hand them over to the "enemy" who
in my case paraded it around like a war trophy.
But a year on we are bigger, we are stronger and that is what I would urge for you and your allies. We may have mistaken your resilience for stubbornness and your prowess for hubris but why not show us and the rest of the game your nobility, your honour and your dignity and bring about an end to this war and help forge a new and improved era for Illyriad? |
Why, this is exactly the reason we keep fighting on now ... because what you are in fact urging us to do here (and there are other posts in other topics) is to play the game for another year, just like you did, to fight another day ... this is not a peace plan for a "a new and improved era for Illyriad" (speaking of which, what does this "new era" include .?. Do you expect people to sign up for it without knowing what it is .?. ), but the quite old "live and fight another day" plan which has nothing to do with "nobility, honour and dignity" imho ...
No, we fight today and that is our "nobility, honour and dignity", because not fighting means that we do not only surrender our troops, but our ideals as well ... or at least that is what I think ...
In the end of the day, I will go with Socrates' estimation on the matter more than any other person's ... he too could have escaped death, and quite easily too, but he sat there in his prison and drank the poison ... was it pride that made him do it .?. Most certainly not ... Read up on it : http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/crito.html it is very interesting (I might make it a topic, hmm )
In his apology he said :
"Someone will say: And are you not ashamed, Socrates, of a course of life
which is likely to bring you to an untimely end? To him I may fairly
answer:
There you are mistaken: a man who is good for anything
ought not to calculate the chance of living or dying; he ought only to
consider whether in doing anything he is doing right or wrong - acting
the part of a good man or of a bad."
And this is imho all there is to it in this war, as well ...
Mahaut wrote:
KP How can you possibly know that? The only
way you could possibly know what someone was really thinking is if you
were telepathic. You are projecting your own possible
motivations onto someone who clearly is not you and of whose motives you
can have no real knowledge . Therefore that was just an insult and can obviously be totally ignored. |
I
do not think that Hathaldir would find that insulting ... besides it
doesn't need much telepathy when there was a known post of him claiming
exactly that ...
Mahaut wrote:
If such a hypothetical, and apparently extremely unlikely  , event
occurred then what I would say to you would simply be "Because we don't
want to see every other player in our alliance end up like you." Not every decision leadership has to make will be popular with every member, having to soothe ruffled feathers and point out the greater good for others is part and parcel of leadership. |
True ... but what happens if all members do not agree with such a decision .?.
Also, a good amount of leadership, indeed the main stress in the whole matter, is that you will have to abide by your decisions and still be a ruler/leader in the next day after a decision was made ...
And
therein lies the question : After you've sold off one of your members
to gain safety for some others, then what credibility is left for you as
a leader .?. Which member will not think "hey, that poor fellow could
have been me" .?.
Dividing the people you lead into groups
that "pay the price" and groups that "reap the harvest" is the most
surefire tactic to not be a leader in the next day ... 
Mahaut wrote:
If
you think being an alliance leader doesn't make you unpopular now and
again then you're in the wrong line of leisure activity. I'm actually
not sure who, in their right minds, would actually want the job!!!! 
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hahaah not me !
jcx wrote:
War does not determined who is RIGHT - only who is LEFT. -Bertrand Russell
Keep blaming on H? or its leadership? We are all warriors here, we came here to fight. So let them come and lets WAR.
What are you afraid of?
Don't blame them if they won't accept any surrender terms. If you can accept losing - then you can't WIN.
This war opens opportunity for new learning experience, strategies and policies that are critical for the alliance future.
We
lose cities - we can rebuild them, we lose troops - we can retrain
them. Even if you are sieged back to the newbie ring there's always a
place for you there.
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I
totally agree ... I do not understand why some people insist on
sugar-coating everything they do ... if you shouldn't take risks in a
game, hey, when and where should you .?. 
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  Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 16:41 |
Mahaut wrote:
KP How can you possibly know that? The only way you could possibly know what someone was really thinking is if you were telepathic. |
If it looks like a duck, quacks in GC like a duck and makes self-righteous posts about revenge like a duck - then it's probably a vengeful duck.
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 16:42 |
The Duke wrote:
To apply the same rule of thumb that H? applied then- that we are doing now- If you choose not to surrender then you will lose more cities. Period. Now you(like the alliances in Consone) can stop the bleeding as soon as you see fit by surrendering. If not - you will lose more. |
It cannot be the same rule of thumb since you have already wiped out many accounts. But regardless - nice backpedal - if we keep this up for a few more months you guys will be paying us to end the war. BTW - did Ditto give you permission to make this statement?
Edited by KillerPoodle - 24 Mar 2014 at 16:45
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 21:54 |
Mahaut wrote:
You could have spoken to us and to vcrow, said you were moving and asked for time to do so. You chose not to.
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Deranzin wrote:
Your policy concerning that matter is probably
different than vCrows ... you might have let some of my cities go, but
vCrows wouldn't imho ... |
Well we didn't have to wait more than a couple of days and wham, vCrows rush to confirm what I say ...
They are even hunting me half the world away to keep me from claiming an abandoned town ... ... those guys are so much fun  , and brave too ... now I want another "honor", "nobility" and "dignity" filled post from their side and I will go to sleep in utter bliss ... please deliver soon ! It is already midnight here ! 
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p
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Tweet
Carried over from Nokigon's thread
