BATTLE OUTCOME SEQUENCE

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   I have searched and not found this question so here goes:
Does the game battle procedure/routine perform calculations is series or totals?

Example for clarification:
Tourney ongoing. 
Alliance "A" has two players occupying a sq/portal.

Player 1 has 5 armies with 10 troops each.
Player 2 has one army with 5 divisions, each with 10 troops.

Alliance "B" attacks the sq with one player.
This player has one army with 5 divisions.

Which of the following two scenarios most closely resembles the process?

1) System totals Alliance "A" and Alliance "B" to figure battle outcome?

2) System processes Alliance "A" player 1 against Alliance "B" player and then Alliance "A" player 2 against Alliance "B" player (Series)

If scenario one is the way things work, how does the system know to provide each player with its battle outcome numbers?
If scenario 2 is the way things work, then is there a possible different battle outcome depending on Alliance "A" having 2 armies instead of seven or 10 armies instead of 6?

I hope this makes sense and someone can help me understand this.
Thanks,
Mikia

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Mikia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List New Poster Joined: 01 Feb 2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6	Topic: BATTLE OUTCOME SEQUENCE Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 01:29
	I have searched and not found this question so here goes: Does the game battle procedure/routine perform calculations is series or totals? Example for clarification: Tourney ongoing. Alliance "A" has two players occupying a sq/portal. Player 1 has 5 armies with 10 troops each. Player 2 has one army with 5 divisions, each with 10 troops. Alliance "B" attacks the sq with one player. This player has one army with 5 divisions. Which of the following two scenarios most closely resembles the process? 1) System totals Alliance "A" and Alliance "B" to figure battle outcome? 2) System processes Alliance "A" player 1 against Alliance "B" player and then Alliance "A" player 2 against Alliance "B" player (Series) If scenario one is the way things work, how does the system know to provide each player with its battle outcome numbers? If scenario 2 is the way things work, then is there a possible different battle outcome depending on Alliance "A" having 2 armies instead of seven or 10 armies instead of 6? I hope this makes sense and someone can help me understand this. Thanks, Mikia

Rill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster General Player Council - Geographer Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903	Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 02:21
	Scenario 1 is the way it works. The system adds the total attack of the attacker(s) and the total defense of the defenders (in proportion to the type of troops with which the attacker is attacking, e.g., weighting defense against cav 50% and defense against infantry 50% if the attacking army(ies) are half cav and half infantry). If the attacker's attack is greater, then the attacker wins. If the defender's defense is greater, then the defender wins. Whichever side loses is entirely wiped out. The winning side loses a percentage of troops equal to a proportion of loser's total/winner's total. So if the attacker has 100k attack and attacks something that defends with 50k defense (against whatever mix of troop types the attacker is attacking with), then the loser is killed and the attacker loses 50k/100k = 50% of the troops. If the attacker has 50k attack and the defender 100k defense, the attacker is killed and the defending armies each lose 50% of their troops. All armies that are on the winning side will lose the same percentage of troops, in the case of this example, 50 percent. The system determines a "lead" army on the square, in general the army that has been on the square longest (although there are some interesting variances related to how long each army has been in existence, and sometimes the lead army is the army that was created first -- they may have ironed out this little bug though). The player in control of the "lead" army receives a report and every other player on the square receives a copy of the same report. All armies present on the square are listed in the report, along with casualties and survivors for each. Note 1: This percentage is also reflected in the unit amount of damage to the commanders of the winning armies. Each commander in the winning armies will take 50 damage to health. Note that commanders on the losing side can take more than 100 damage to health (losing all remaining health). Note 2: It may seem curious that I include a scenario in which there are multiple attacking armies; this situation is rare and only to my knowledge occurs when multiple armies reinforcing a city participate in a sally forth against a siege camp. However, in this scenario, attacks by multiple armies at the same time can occur, and the result is calculated as I've described. (Sally forth is treated as a raid and therefore the attacker can sustain a maximum of 1/3 of the total force as casualties, but that is another discussion). Edited by Rill - 12 Apr 2013 at 02:31

Salararius Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster Joined: 26 Sep 2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 519	Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 02:21
	It's scenario 1 but I do not believe I understand your question. The literal answer is that the system knows to provide each player with their battle outcome numbers because the system knows who each player is in the battle. The system keeps track of where all the armies are located and knows which ones are on the square the battle is being fought on. That is the literal answer but I fear your question isn't properly worded and that really isn't the answer you want.

Rill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster General Player Council - Geographer Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903	Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 02:26
	Also note that because of commander skills and critical hit possibilities, it may make a difference whether there are 8 armies on a square or only 2 armies, even if the total attack or defense value of the UNITS in the armies is still the same. In general, having more armies and more commanders is superior to having the same number and types of units gathered under fewer commanders. (This is impossible to do whilst attacking except in the case of sally forth as described above, so usually only applies to defending.) For example, in the current tournament, there are some advantages to stacking armies from multiple players on a square, other than the fact that only one champion can be captured per city. A determined small alliance with multiple commanders, once established on a square, can be more difficult than one might think to get rid of.

Mikia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List New Poster Joined: 01 Feb 2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6	Posted: 12 Apr 2013 at 02:50
	Rill, Thank you so much for your explanation. The origin of my question was the answer you provided in the last paragraph of your second response. It just FELT that way. Cool beans, Mikia

Mikia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List New Poster Joined: 01 Feb 2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6	Posted: 13 Apr 2013 at 19:55
	Hmm, Now I am more confused. This is why. Using the battle Calculator located at http://illyriad.varda.nl/battle/ the following information is derived: Inputs: Defender's Commanders = Phalanx with heroism at 10. Attacker's Commanders = Marshal with heroism at 10. Scenatio 1: Attackers - 1 Army with 5 commanders/divisions containing 5 swiftsteeds yields a total attack of 7020 pts. 1 Army with 1 division of 5 swiftsteeds yields an attack of 468 pts. Multiply by 5 for a total attack of 2340 pts. (If they all landed simultaneously which is not the point here) Defense: 1 army with 5 commanders/divisions and 5 protectors in each division provides a total defense of 399 pts. If one were to utilize 5 armies, each army having 5 protectors in one division the total defense would be 78.8 pts per army times 5 results in a total defense of 399 pts. Why doesn't a defending army gain/have an advantage using a single army with multiple commanders/divisions like attacking armies do? Is this because of the way the calculator calculates the information or is this intended? Still trying to understand (but probably never will), Mikia

Rill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster General Player Council - Geographer Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903	Posted: 13 Apr 2013 at 20:30
	What bonuses are you using for the commanders in this scenario? If the commanders in the defending army have self bonuses that increase defense against cavalry, then the more of them that there are, the more points there will be. Because they have less defense against cav than attack points, the effect will of course be smaller. Also, individual commander bonuses are limited to the point value of the attribute in the whole army. So if your entire army is 5 units, each commander bonus can never be more than 5 units worth of attack or defense or whatever. I am not sure why you are using such small armies, but it's possible that the attack calculator isn't taking into account the limit to commander bonuses (that they cannot exceed the attribute for the entire army). Keep in mind that the battle calculator is a player-created tool and may contain some errors. This does not change the way the game mechanics actually work, which are as described. Also, there is no difference between one army with 5 divisions and 5 armies with one division each, assuming the commanders and the units led by each commander are the same, EXCEPT that the total value of the commander bonus cannot exceed the attribute for the entire army, so that if you have less than 60 units' value of an attribute assigned to a particular commander, the individual self bonus will be different if he is in an army by himself vs. if he is in an army with a division that contains other units as well. For example, if I have a t2 infantry commander leading t2 infantry, and he has 50 t2 infantry in his division, which is the only division in the army, his maximum heroism bonus, even if heroism is at level 10, will be equivalent to the attack value of 50 t2 infantry. If I had two such armies, then the total commander heroism bonus would be the attack value of 50 infantry attack plus 50 infantry attack, or 100 infantry attack. (You can substitute "defense" for "attack" anywhere in here, it works the same.) However, if I put those two commanders in an army together still with 50 t2 swords in each division, the total value of the army attack attribute would be equivalent to 100 t2 swords. Each commander would then receive the maximum heroism bonus, which is equivalent to 60 times his attack value (60 t2 infantry in this scenario). The total commander self bonus for the two commanders would thus be equal to 60 plus 60 or 120 t2 infantry attack value. So in the extremely limited scenario in which you have fewer than 60 of an attribute value worth of troops assigned to a commander, it makes a difference whether the commander is assigned alone to an army or leads a division in an army with other troops. In practice, compared to the sizes of armies usually used, the difference is essentially irrelevant. This may reflect my own way of learning, but I suggest that you put together some armies and try attacking some NPCs, even if they are very small armies. You will probably learn a lot more through some simple experiments than you will spending a lot of time discovering every anomaly in the battle calculator, which is intended as a tool, not as gospel.

Rill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster General Player Council - Geographer Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903	Posted: 13 Apr 2013 at 20:50
	To summarize what I said above, I think it's likely the battle calculator is improperly calculating the heroism bonus for the commanders of the attacking army. The commander bonus for one swifsteed commander leading 5 swiftsteeds could not exceed the total attack value of 5 swiftsteeds. Swiftsteeds have an attack value of 36, so 5 of them have a value of 180. Assuming a single commander with maximum heroism (and no Charge, the division bonus for cav attack), the attack value of one swiftsteed commander leading 5 swiftsteeds would be 180 plus 180 heroism bonus or 360 attack. Multiply by 5, five such armies have 1800 attack. One army with 5 divisions of 5 swiftsteeds each, there would be 25 swiftsteeds with an attack value for the units of 900. In this case each commander would get a heroism bonus equal to that of 25 swiftsteeds or 900 points. Five commanders times 900 points each would be 4500, plus the 900 from the units would be 5400 total attack. Let's compare this to the same units defending. Swiftsteeds have 21 defense against cavalry. Five of them would thus have 105 defense against cavalry. One commander with the maximum self bonus for defense against cavalry (avoid charge) leading 5 swiftsteeds would thus have 105 defense against cavalry, for a total defense against cavalry of 210 for the army. Five such armies would have a total of 1050 defense against cavalry. If you instead put all the commanders together in a single army, the total number of swiftsteeds would be 25, times 21 defense against cavalry, or 525 defense against cavalry total. A commander in this army with maximum defense against cav self skills would have 25 times 21 defense against cavalry, or 525 defense against cavalry. Five commanders times 525 points each is 2625 defense against cavalry, plus the 525 from the swiftsteeds would be a total of 3150 defense against cavalry. As you can see, although the numbers are different, it works the same way for attack and defense.

Rill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster General Player Council - Geographer Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903	Posted: 13 Apr 2013 at 20:54
	Sorry, just saw that you are using heroism for both defense and offense. Since Heroism only affects the attack value, there is no bonus in your original scenario for any defensive commanders. Since you didn't include any defensive bonus, of course the defense numbers didn't show the effects of additional commanders. The battle calculator also doesn't include the "critical hit" logic, which is of significant benefit when stacking armies on a square. (Although not nearly as much as it used to be.)

Mikia Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List New Poster Joined: 01 Feb 2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6	Posted: 13 Apr 2013 at 21:15
	OK, now this is making more sense and I understand the flaw in my scenario in regards to attack bonus vs defense bonus as you just pointed out. One other question came to mind though, does the city wall bonus calculate into all defense or just defense in the cities? Thank you again Rill, for your tenacity in getting this through my thick skull. Mikia