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Battle Calculation with Equipment
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Greenhorn
Greenhorn


Joined: 19 Oct 2016
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Points: 69 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 07:09
Ok I've mistaken: you did consider the elite bonus, it's just your table is bit messy. Ok, let's roll.

Knight's basic attack:
Knight commander basic attack: 65*(1+6*10) = 3965; 
General modifier: 1 + (15Charge + 30Terrain + 10Pres + 0Biome)/100 = 1 + 0.55 = 1.55;
Crafted modifier for commanders: 1 + (60spear*2 + 60armor*2 +5heavy horse*2)/100 = 1 + 2.5 = 3.5;
Crafted modifier for troops: 1 + (60spear*2 + 60armor*2 +5heavy horse*2)/100 = 1 + 2.5 = 3.4.

Now 1 commander total attack: 3965 * 1.55 * 3.5 = 21 510.13, all 5 dealt 21 510.13 * 5 = 107 550.63;
1 knight (troops) total attack: 65 * 1.55 * 3.4 = 342.55; all 100 dealt 34 255.

Total army attack 107 550.13 + 34 255.0 = 141 805.63.

Casualties rate must be 11 840.5 / 141 805.63 = 0.08 or 8% or 8 knights. Hmm... It's either your data wasn't too correct or one of us is mistaken:)

Now you see those your precentage figures can't be taken serious because of one of your early statemetns: "To achieve this my attack score needed to be in the range 113,022.95 to 124,983.06" (not sure how you got it btw, i got different range here). This means only one: "I do knot know what my exact atack score was". Now if you don't, all those QEDs are but mere speculations. Sorry, man, no offense.

If I may advise you to use the following values in your new attack (plz attack something bigger than a host of rats, find some decent stack of 60-80k def score at least):

- 1 knight commander atack on plains, with 10 Heroism and 15 Charge, fully equipped in plainsman and heavy horse, no pres and biome: 20 122.38
- the same with pres bonus: 21 510.13
- 1 knight (troops) unequipped attack without pres: 94.25
- 1 the same with pres: 100.75
- 1 knight (troops) equipped (plainsman armor and spear, no hh) attack without pres: 320.45
- 1 the same with pres: 342.55.

Please try this ones on a good NPC stack and see if you can predict casualties rate. And the last one, about adding vs multiplying modifiers: please check this one out. The guy showed everyone here the proper way some 6 years ago. Still excellent read, except missing crafted. My only endeavor was to find out how crafteed is applied. Took me quite a time it blasted me that when the crafted stuff was intruduced the devs rather added another modifier for it than modified the existing one:)

GReat lucks and good hunting, pals
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Sene View Drop Down
Greenhorn
Greenhorn


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Points: 69 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 05:43
Originally posted by Hucbold Hucbold wrote:

BTW, Sene, you DO know I'm Irish? Excellent put-down if it was intended.

It seems we haven't met before so no, I did not know you are Irish. Kinda thought it was going without saying that those words belong to the baddiest baddie of the film and the phrase was to demonstrate how rotten and filthy he was. In any case, my sincerest apologies, pal, if you took it personally. I am a strong rasism-hater myself, got a couple of Irish friends here, got no problems with no races or countries. Russia is my neck of the woods and believe me, I know how it feels to be looked down on and to be blamed for all the world's sins.

Anyway, down to business if you don't mind. I take it you 1) equipped all the troops and and all the commanders with plainsman gear, commanders had heavy horses in addition; 2) commanders all have Hersoim 10 & Charge 15; 3) You have prestige attack bonus on.

I'll try to make my cacls but quick word straight away:

1) You heavily oversent there, man. Each army must contain of no more than 61 troops distributed between 5 divisions within elite limits;
2) Rats are so easy that 61 knights is enough to kill most of the myriads, not mentioning legions and furthermore hosts;
3) In your caclulations you clearly missed the elite bonus that doubles crafted bonus up, which implies your calculations might be seriously misleading;
4) Last, but most important to me. Your attack was 'in blind", you just sent the amount of troops that was obviously sufficient and then tried to speculate the result out of it; now I posted 2 reports proving I knew in advance the exact minimum number of troops needed to prevail in the battle. Don't you think the latter speaks a bit LOUDER than the former?:)

Great lucks and good hunting meanwhile, I'll try to post something meaningful a bit later.


Edited by Sene - 05 Jun 2018 at 05:45
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Forum Warrior
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Points: 251 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hucbold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 23:00
I will answer the economics discussion separately but not tonight - the above figures impinge on the argument but so do other things. BTW, Sene, you DO know I'm Irish? Excellent put-down if it was intended.

Edited by Hucbold - 04 Jun 2018 at 23:01
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Points: 251 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hucbold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 22:56
Taking up Sene's challenge I dispatched 5 elite divisions of 20 human knights each against a host of rats on the plains. The knights had plains spears and plains plate. In addition the commanders had heavy horses.

The rats details:
# def tot
Ratlings 943 6 5658
Rats 467 8 3736
Dis Rats 230 12 2760
Elder Bucks 111 16 1776
Raw total 13930
Terrain modified 11840.5

I lost 10 knights (kill ratio of 175 to 1). To achieve this my attack score needed to be in the range 113,022.95 to 124,983.06.

Here's my table
basic weap arm horse terrain charge total prestige
coms 19825 1.2 1.2 0.1 0.3 0.15              78,308.75
men 6500 1.2 1.2 0.3 0.15              25,025.00
          103,333.75           113,667.13

pres applies to the total - all others add (not sure about biome college bonuses but will check). The total is in the required range.

Putting figures on the elements - so you can gauge the value of each element
basic weap arm horse terrain charge total prestige
coms 19825 23790 23790 1982.5 5947.5 2973.75 78308.75
men 6500 7800 7800 0 1950 975 25025
tot 26325 31590 31590 1982.5 7897.5 3948.75 103333.75              11,366.71

and as a percentage:
basic weap arm horse terrain charge total prestige
coms 17.4% 20.9% 20.9% 1.7% 5.2% 2.6% 68.9%
men 5.7% 6.9% 6.9% 0.0% 1.7% 0.9% 22.0%
tot 23.2% 27.8% 27.8% 1.7% 6.9% 3.5% 90.9% 10.0%

Note that the terrain effect is only 6.9% not 30%. The terrain bonus does NOT multiply the equipment bonuses. Rather the equipment counters and overtakes the terrain effect. QED!

Had I sent 65 knights, I would only have lost 7.

Alternative workings that produce a value in range will be entertained.
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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Points: 678 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 23:47
I think what often gets missed in these conversations is that people get very focused on the hunting scenario, and more broadly on theoretical efficiency in isolation from practical concerns.

Crafted items aren't cost effective in many situations. However, on the battlefield, there are situations where long term theoretical efficiency takes a backseat to eliminating enemy troops for strategic purposes, even if the extra killing power is 20% less cost efficient for small portions of your army.

Case in point: when you are running full troop queues at max sov, crafted items can be a way to slightly boost killing power beyond your practical limit. Gear and elite divisions can also be deployed to cover holes in your defensive formations. In that example, you would look at casualties reduced from the main army, which is a different metric than upkeep savings.

If you view gear as an ace up the sleeve for specific field situations, I think that gives you a better grasp of how equipment is actually used in PvP. More expensive, quite likely yes, but there are times when you would pay up for a small, concrete, temporary, one-time advantage. That is how gear is used in many other MMORTS titles.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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eowan the short View Drop Down
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Points: 937 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 23:00
Additionally, I've realised I made a mistake with my calculations for mountain spears- I forgot to scale the upkeep cost by the effect of the mountain spear.

The actual payback periods are ~217 days for non-elites and ~75 for elites.
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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eowan the short View Drop Down
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Points: 937 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 22:06
Yep, I agree with the city defence thing as I referenced in my original post on this that one of the issues is that you lose most of the equipment/ could possibly end up supplying your enemies.

TBH, I only really looked at mountain spears because those were what was being talked about in the original post, I have by no means studied this in depth.

Which ones would have a better payback period?

I also hadn't thought of the use of a non-involved account for the purposes of gathering ingredients for crafted items.
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Points: 678 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 21:33
Originally posted by eowan the short eowan the short wrote:

Therefore a equipping a knight with a spear is worth it if the knight you would be equipping it to was around for 3129 hours or more.... which is over 130 days.... If you do the same but with elite divisions used, then that figure falls to just under 90 days.

Mountain spears are relatively expensive. There are a number of items that are sufficiently economical on offense for elite divisions, and a few that make sense for medium sized armies. The same applies to defensive field armies.

As pointed out, the economics of city defense are different because of the 100% recovery rate. This is reflected in the cost of wolf fur for pikes, for example.

I believe that many players gather, hunt, and craft with their alt(s).
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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Greenhorn
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Points: 69 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 20:42
Originally posted by Dabrelis Dabrelis wrote:

 If they had only 100 HP to start with, they would be dead?
Is that what you are saying?

Totally true:)
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Greenhorn
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Points: 55 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dabrelis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 14:19
Originally posted by Sene Sene wrote:

No, Dabrelis, hit points loss is equal to troops losses percentage. 23% losses mean 23 HP loss for all commanders in the army. Levels, experience, skills or anything but loss rate matter not. Hence here commanders lost 100 HP

If they had only 100 HP to start with, they would be dead?
Is that what you are saying?
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