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Rill View Drop Down
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Points: 6903 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 19:44
decent spear sov in places.  Could be good for orcs.
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Points: 380 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 20:56
Originally posted by Brandmeister Brandmeister wrote:

Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

officially as of June 2nd, 2015 claim Northeastern Pawanallpa as our headquarters east of plot x=810 and north of y=-1778 to the border of Pawanallpa.

Are you joking? Your alliance has 12 members with 20 total cities. That claim is so big that it could comfortably fit most of eCrow.

Half of it is practically uninhabitable. Look at the Strategic Map... there's a ring around it as visible as the Newbie Ring. I just figured they went all the way up to the north coast for ease of demarkation as well as to claim the coast.
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Points: 120 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 15:14
The Deathmonger land claim most entertainingly illustrates the folly of all this purported land claiming.

I mean..  really ... a brand new tiny alliance lays claim to nearly half of Pawa (by the way, not just the wasteland, but also including some very ripe lands in the western portion of the claim),  some alliances have single cities almost as large as the entire Deathmonger alliance.  They have bounced from their initial alliance profile of death and destruction to any interlopers to a more veiled threat in their present claim (existing cities residing in their 'lands' are grandfathered in, but implicitly meaning that new arrivals are doomed?).

They are not even amongst the top 10 of alliances in size that reside in the area they claim, so by what theory do they claim such a largesse ?  Clearly Deathmongers cannot enforce their land claims now, and given their political adroitness, will likely never be able to do so in the future.  

So other alliances with vastly more population in the area (like AESir and many others) are to now look elsewhere because of some vacuous puffery of a land claim?  

No one is going to modify their land choices by such a claim.. it is indeed nothing more than hot air. 

Logically, and with just a dose of reason, consider if every alliance of Deathmongers size and larger, made land claims in TBL even a fraction of the size of this one,  TBL would be a patchwork of countless overlapping claims that would make Jejune's tidy little map unreadable.

Sure there is an understandable rationale for an established alliance, with sufficient "mass" in one area to make an argument for a 'country' of their own.  Like the real world, their success in having such a border survive is their ability to enforce it either by political or military will.  

Rogue "states" without anything other than a wish to have vast land claims do little more than make a mockery of the more well planned and arguably defensible claims of others. (not to remotely indicate i believe any are a good idea ; ))

Sooner or later sanity and reason will temper the folly of pointless and empty claiming that seems to be the current trendy means of attention grabbing . . .


Edited by Mona Lisa - 05 Jun 2015 at 15:22
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Brandmeister View Drop Down
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Points: 2396 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 15:56
Originally posted by Mona Lisa Mona Lisa wrote:

Logically, and with just a dose of reason, consider if every alliance of Deathmongers size and larger, made land claims in TBL even a fraction of the size of this one,  TBL would be a patchwork of countless overlapping claims that would make Jejune's tidy little map unreadable.

See, that sounds interesting. Doubtless there would be scuffles between the little upstarts and their neighbors. Rogue players might send a city or two down into Broken Lands to challenge the more irrational claims. The frontier might end up being a little rowdy, but I see that as a positive development in the sandbox.

Elgea has become like Europe in the 20th century. Big, established states with known boundaries. Most big alliance leaders have standing allies and ongoing diplomatic discussions with other leaders. It's to the point where even tournament squares are allocated via negotiation. Elgea exists in a state of overall political gridlock, until the major powers come into real conflict, at which point huge server wars break loose.

That "big empires" approach is one style of gameplay. If the Broken Lands had a patchwork of competing claims, many illegitimate, all amid semi-chaos... I have to admit that sounds like an interesting alternative to the Elgean state of affairs. If Broken Lands territory claims are pre-certified as legitimate by the existing Elgean mega-powers, I think that would neutralize all the flavor from an otherwise interesting frontier.
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Points: 120 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 16:22
True.  These sorts of empty claims on vast tracts of land have the potential to generate some level of friction, and if that is the desired effect . . .  it is a wonderful way to do so.

I guess anarchy has its appeal at some point if the boredom becomes too great.

My alt is chomping at the bit for some Deathmonger-like alliance to make a land claim near it . . .  friction would most certainly occur ; ) and we do know that the DEVS like friction.
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Points: 2396 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 16:32
If you are chomping at the bit for action, why not just exodus a city into their midst and see what happens? I think it would be an interesting challenge to fight an entire small alliance using only a single city. If you gamble one city and lose, that is barely a setback for a large player.
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Points: 1857 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 16:32
Originally posted by Mona Lisa Mona Lisa wrote:

The Deathmonger land claim most entertainingly illustrates the folly of all this purported land claiming.

I mean..  really ... a brand new tiny alliance lays claim to nearly half of Pawa (by the way, not just the wasteland, but also including some very ripe lands in the western portion of the claim),  some alliances have single cities almost as large as the entire Deathmonger alliance.  They have bounced from their initial alliance profile of death and destruction to any interlopers to a more veiled threat in their present claim (existing cities residing in their 'lands' are grandfathered in, but implicitly meaning that new arrivals are doomed?).

They are not even amongst the top 10 of alliances in size that reside in the area they claim, so by what theory do they claim such a largesse ?  Clearly Deathmongers cannot enforce their land claims now, and given their political adroitness, will likely never be able to do so in the future.  

So other alliances with vastly more population in the area (like AESir and many others) are to now look elsewhere because of some vacuous puffery of a land claim?  

No one is going to modify their land choices by such a claim.. it is indeed nothing more than hot air. 

Logically, and with just a dose of reason, consider if every alliance of Deathmongers size and larger, made land claims in TBL even a fraction of the size of this one,  TBL would be a patchwork of countless overlapping claims that would make Jejune's tidy little map unreadable.

Sure there is an understandable rationale for an established alliance, with sufficient "mass" in one area to make an argument for a 'country' of their own.  Like the real world, their success in having such a border survive is their ability to enforce it either by political or military will.  

Rogue "states" without anything other than a wish to have vast land claims do little more than make a mockery of the more well planned and arguably defensible claims of others. (not to remotely indicate i believe any are a good idea ; ))

Sooner or later sanity and reason will temper the folly of pointless and empty claiming that seems to be the current trendy means of attention grabbing . . .
The Deathmonger land claim gives you an avenue to paint the entire process with a single, massive roller. That is the only thing I can find that is wrong with it. Everything else, you answered yourself: "Clearly Deathmongers cannot enforce their land claims."

"Sooner or later sanity and reason will temper the folly of pointless and empty claiming." I would have to counter that by saying, "sanity and reason" dominate Elgea now, let us have our "folly."
Bonfyr Verboo
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Brandmeister View Drop Down
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Points: 2396 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 16:57
Abstract, she didn't paint the process with a single massive roller. I believe Mona Lisa acknowledged that land claims made sense for alliances with sufficient mass in a particular area, and the military or political will to enforce the claim. Isn't that what you, Jejune, and the other territory claim proponents have put forth?
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abstractdream View Drop Down
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Points: 1857 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 17:37
Did you read the first sentence? She said it "illustrates the folly of all..."

Also, she said the rationale was understandable and that some claims were well planned and arguably defensible but ultimately expressly denied that she believes they are a good idea. Though perhaps a little flamboyant in terms, I think I portrayed her intent accurately.
Bonfyr Verboo
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Brandmeister View Drop Down
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Points: 2396 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 22:19
Fair enough, she did say that too.
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