Are Land Claims Bad for Illy?

Ash, when you say,  "This it NOT a "friendly" game," you do realize that you've just decided for everybody what this game is?  I find it a very friendly game myself, so I'm wondering if I can be allowed to continue being friendly and playing that way or if you are going to try to convert the sandbox into a most "unfriendly" place?

In addition the fact that you signed up for "an "MMO Role-Playing-Sanbox" and might choose to play the role of the "scumbag" is, of course, your prerogative.  However, in the same way, if you decide to do some action that the rest of Illy doesn't like and they decided to run you out of town, is that is their prerogative, unless the devs declare otherwise. 

All of which underscores my point: in all games where players can be removed the ultimate ability to do that rests in the judges of the game.  In this game the judges are the players and the devs.  The devs remove players who do not adhere to what is best for the game, even if the technique is available...it's called an exploit.  The players may decide that some action or strategy is so unfriendly to new and small players that it deserve the same response.  I'm only asking if one of those actions isn't good for the game and thus should be thwarted by the actions of the whole of Illy. 

I'm not imposing anything on anyone though I am arguing forcefully that land claims are not a good thing for the health of the game and that the whole of Illy should decide to ban them.  This does not mean anyone has to be coerced, since if all agree, then no coercion would be necessary.  But of course, given the strategic advantage the technique has, it is doubtful any alliance will give up such an advantage even if it means that Illy becomes a sandbox of bullies and the bullied....kind bullies maybe, but bullies nevertheless.

You end with a sad statement, in my opinion, and probably a reason you don't find Illy "friendly" when you say you will "shed a tear" for those you have intimidated and coerced.  One has to wonder if the intimidation and coercion don't add just a bit to the "unfriendly" game you are playing.

AJ

When i say it's not friendly, i am neither accusing nor deciding anything for any player. I 'm just stating that it's not friendly by default.

Sorry, but as i already have written in private, Illyriad cannot become a sandbox of bullies and bullied, cause it already is.. You don't wan't to accept it, or just say a small perma-owner of a mine is less of a bully than a whole region owner. True, though hypocritical according to my dictionary.

Illyriad is a game of empires. Those guards or your sov claim mark the mine as your property, both as an individual and as a member of your alliance (empire) and allied confederation (league of empires). If you ripped a mine out of someone's hands, the response would vary heavily based on the relative strengths of your empires, the owner's disposition, the empire's perception on property claims, political factors, military strategic factors, the opinions of your alliance leaders, the perceived value of the resource, and many other considerations.

I am willing to bet that a tiny alliance losing a little Iceheart mine to a huge aggressor would draw only a few boos from the Peanut Gallery, and no real reaction. Smashing the army on a Silversteel mine would probably draw an immediate war declaration at the confederation level. However, a tiny alliance seizing a Earthblood mine (worthless) from a big alliance might also be met with immediate force. A big alliance seizing a larger Arterium mine from another big alliance might result in a lot of saber rattling, and intense negotiations between their alliances and allies.

I believe it is these situations which keep the Illyriad sandbox interesting. If the territory claims result in some friction, that would be great. Like mining claims, some territories will be disputed, and that will keep the Broken Lands fresh. Elgea is very gridlocked and static, with high stakes over relatively trivial situations. Hopefully the Broken Lands will be more dynamic.

Diva, I believe that over the next few months we will see a significant de-population of Elgea and the Broken Lands, as permasat accounts are allowed to expire. Only the devs know for sure how many accounts are sitter-only at this point, but my sense is that the number is higher than people realize, especially in the larger accounts. Time will also tell if the devs are genuinely diligent about policing multi-accounting. Since so many Broken Lands settlements were just Elgea players, as you pointed out, I think this might thin the ranks considerably on the frontier.

ajqtrz wrote: What most people in this forum seem to resent is that I would suggest a new rule regarding land claims is much the same process as the two mentioned above.

Personally, I am objecting to your presentation of land claims as if it is something new to Illyriad. It isn't. What you're proposing is that because this issue is new to you, it should be treated as new and novel by the whole Illyriad community.

I refer all readers to the establishment of the Dwarven Lords Homeland (link) by Belargyle, on January 25th, 2011. That was four years ago. The community had a long forum discussion on the topic then. Memorable players like The Dude, Belargyle, Smoking Gnu, Brids, and Kumomoto all expressed their opinions and concerns. I would like to highlight that some veteran players had precisely the same concerns that were just put forth in this very thread, four years later. Namely that the claimants of that zone would become axe-wielding bullies who smashed up innocent settlements without warning.

People discussed it. The DLords land claim proceeded. Aside from a few bumps, none of those dire concerns ever materialized into reality. Why? Probably because some time prior to the Dwarven Lords claim, an alliance called The Mal Motshans claimed the entire Mal Motsha region, and did indeed become a bunch of axe-wielding bullies who smashed up innocent settlements without warning. Their stance was especially aggressive because at the time, Mal Motsha was apparently a newbie spawn zone, and they were razing helpless, clueless players. In response to their behavior, the server banded together and handed them a savage beating. Nobody ever tried that again.

So the Illyriad community has already established the precedents here. Bullies get crushed, and reasonable land claims are left in peace.

Since that time, the exodus mechanic was introduced, allowing people to painlessly remove cities that are unknowingly moved into claimed territories. Now the cost of moving errant cities is effectively zero (specifically for a double exodus scenario).

ajqtrz wrote: In the end the bullying will probably continue.  The smaller and thus weaker will continue to be dominated and ordered around by the stronger, even if the orders are delivered ever so politely.  I guess I was looking for the same spirit of sacrifice that was evidently manifested a long, long time ago.

Who is bullying anyone? Land claims have been a part of this game for over four years, ever since I have started playing. I don't remember anyone weaker getting dominated or ordered around by the stronger. If you are suggesting that this has happened in the past, or is happening right now, then please provide the details. If these are just your worries and not actual facts, then I am comfortable repeating what I have said throughout this thread: given the historical peaceful behavior around alliance land claims, and the swift community response to actual problems, I find nothing particularly alarming about a fresh set of claims on the Broken Lands frontier.

I think that sentiment is indeed consistent with the same spirit of sacrifice that was evidently manifested a long, long time ago. Land claims arose, were discussed thoroughly, then adopted, and have been handled responsibly by the community for over four years. If anyone foolishly attempts to go the route of The Mal Motshans... then I would expect a very similar community response to come crashing out of Elgea with the force of a great many armies. I rather doubt that will happen, but in the meantime, it seems unnecessary to keep presenting territory claims as a new issue instead of something that is already a longstanding and relatively respected part of the Illyriad player culture.