Are Land Claims Bad for Illy?

Thexion wrote: In my opinion there is huge difference between claiming a area of the map and claiming certain distance of existing town. May it be 10 squares.   Real difference is that the 10 squares is based on real existing towns and with map claim you can practically claim anything. Secondly The 10 squares have been granted to everyone regardless their alliance or even lack of it. Thirdly 10 squares can have practical effect on the amount of sovereing squares your town can claim not just some potential growing space that might not ever be used. Lets face it you can build your next town anywhere but your towns sovereingty surroundings are gone if someone builds town there. Fourthly 10 square rule is mostly used as a guideline to support good behaviour and to avoid friction many players accept new neighbours if they don't interfere with their plans. I other hand support this sort behaviour and dont think its bad for illy, Illy community should not say what you can and cannot do in Illyriad. It is a sandbox. Being "New player friend" is fine but it should not be forced on to others.  There is enough space for friendly areas and not so friendly, especially in BL. New players and activity to illy does not come by forcing everyone to the same cast.

First of all, i say that i too share Vaneke's point, that regional claims are similar- if not identical (though enlarged)- to the 10 sq rule. It's a point i acknowledged privately to ajq, along with some other points, long before this topic started. Now to justify the above, showing you my viewpoint by replying to your points.

1) An alliance claiming a territory almost obviously will claim the one they mostly inhabit already. Thus, regional claims are also based on real existing cities.

2) Anyone, aligned or not, is free to make a regional claim, even those currently claimed by others

3) Regional claims also have practical uses, just like the 10-sq: Random cities in a territory can fiddle with your alliance-scale clustering plans.

4) I simply reverse your very argument. Claiming land and formally announcing it can prevent friction, like it's already written some pages before.

On another note, i believe this topic to be worthless. Words alone can't kill my armies, so i advise ajq to either gather the strength to fight over this, or let it go completely.
To his passionate obsession on the matter, leading to accusations of intimidation, bullying and coercion, i only wonder why no equally passionate scumbag appears, to actually thank him for all the compliments. Shul-nak, you dissapointed me :P

Disclaimer: My beliefs do not represent my current training alliance or any alliance at all. I understand that leaders handle diplomacy so not being one gives you the right to completely ignore me.



Edited by Ashmadia - 20 May 2015 at 17:56

ajqtrz wrote: In response to the person who has said that the "playground analogy" (or metaphor, if you like) was inappropriate because in that analogy there are the adults who ultimately decide if something on the playground is good for all the kids or not.  I guess I should have continued the explanation and pointed out that, ultimately, it's the players of Illy who decided what is acceptable or not.  Just as in a playground situation where kids are "claiming" the swings to the exclusion of other kids, the adults have to decide if they want to take action or not, so too in this matter in Illy.  Thus, the analogy actually fits perfectly once you give ultimate control tot he Illy community.  And just as the adult playground supervisors have to agree on what constitutes "bullying" and what doesn't, so too in Illy, we, the community at large, must do so as well.

Well I didn't bother with reading 6 walls of text so I may be restating some opinions, but as a trader in illyria, both in Elgea and BL, I'm not too enthusiastic about these land claims. I personally prefer to harvest raw materials instead of buying them at inflated market prices and then manufacturing or selling them. If an alliance claims a part of BL that contains exotic resources, who knows what will happen to the supply of that resource? Sure, players could have already settled there and continue to harvest that resource, but that would be unfair for new players, being unable to move in. Access to local trade hubs would decrease, and the market would be monopolized by that alliance.


Edited by Bobtron - 22 May 2015 at 05:43

Brandmeister wrote: It does make good sense to allow permanent and roaming traders to exodus close to trade hubs for the purpose of cross-continent trade.

This is a great point. 

The areas of Tor Carrock and bordering regions that contain Arterium are some of the most densely populated areas of the new player ring. I don't think that an alliance of 100 players working catapults non-stop could clear that region faster than new players arrive. This ignores the fact that there would be huge political backlash against someone trying to evict new players from the new player ring. Backlash from the current owners of the Arterium mines. Backlash from the many alliances large and small who are already established in Tor Carrock. Backlash from the allies of those alliances. Backlash from the community at large for trying to claim a densely populated area. I'm comfortable stating that the idea of such a claim is so farfetched as to cross the line through Impractical and straight to Impossible. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

ajqtrz wrote: which leads me to ask why those alliances claiming the area and also the resources of those areas would actually allow anybody to harvest those resources....especially the ones that are useful. Can you guaranty access to all resources by all the people of Illy once they have become the "property" of alliances?

Over the years, I have worked many deals to gain access to valuable materials that were not being actively harvested by their owners. Many players have captured resources that they only harvest occasionally. Some people generously granted free access to their herbs and mines, and other times I worked out mutually beneficial arrangements. I think there is some confusion about my statement though. I believe that if alliances were not harvesting valuable materials in their own territories, it would be possible for some people to negotiate for access. But everyone? No. It would not be my goal to "guaranty access to all resources by all the people of Illy". Why would I want to do that? I would want exclusive access to valuable materials to craft increasingly valuable equipment, which I could sell at a profit or use to the tactical advantage of my alliance and my allies.

If they would choose not to grant access to me, so be it. As I have stated before in this thread, I am not aware of any useful rare resource except Arterium that is so geographically concentrated that I could not acquire it elsewhere via harvesting or trade.

ajqtrz wrote: If those making the land claims are doing so out of a clear strategic goal, what is to keep them from claiming all the ice heart territory in south BL?

Raw geography? The Long White is enormous. It touches both sides of the map. Such an area could never be policed effectively. Also, the gain would be tiny. Iceheart is already in oversupply in Elgea. While useful, it is also abundant.

ajqtrz wrote: Once you admit people can simply claim an area and it's resources, you open up the possibility of monopolistic practices. In fact, if I were a believer in land claims as good for Illy, I'd be staking out some spots exactly where the valuable resources exist. Why have to park an army when a few cities and a formal announcement will do just as well?

People did lock down a rare resource: Silversteel. There are only five mines in all of Elgea, and now another five in the Broken Lands. For a long time, the owners formed a cartel that kept Silversteel prices astromically high, like De Beers and diamonds. I thought their monopoly was one of the coolest things ever attempted in Illyriad. That cartel eventually fell apart for many reasons. Owners broke ranks and sold extra metal. Mines changed hands. Also, the supply of earth and fire salts for making useful Silversteel items is probably 0.1% the size of the actual Silversteel supply.

Your statement also ignores the likelihood that claims will go unchallenged. Could you make a paper claim to the entire Long White? Sure. Go ahead, put it on the land map. But you will never be able to enforce that claim if anyone breaks it.

Now, if one of the Top 5 alliances moved into Calumnex and declared, "All the Silversteel and Obsidian mines in this region belong to us. Move your cities away from the mines and withdraw your guards by tomorrow," that would be a serious claim backed up by serious firepower.