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Topic ClosedAre Land Claims Bad for Illy?

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Jane DarkMagic View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2015 at 04:57
Originally posted by phoenixfire phoenixfire wrote:

So please continue saying that everyone making a claim is a douche who would screw someone over just for the heck of it.

I never said that... I made a joke in a thread about someone paying people to move into an area.  I am pro-land claim when the alliance is already the prevalent power in an area.  I just think they are ridiculous when they are indefensible.  SIN posted something similar in a guide on the forums today.  You should read it! OR do you also want to accuse them of being anti-landclaim?

By the way, a land claim does in fact limit the players who can move into an area.  That is the intent, and no matter how you try to frame it that doesn't make it less true.  If you would like to continue arguing, I suggest you move to the Are Land Claims Bad thread.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 01:49
In an ironic kind of way, I think the SIN posting actually meshed pretty well with the main points in my first reply.

Silly, empty threats leveled at prospective settlers in broad areas, not even remotely weakly dominated by a claiming alliance like HAN or Deathmongers is pointless in the end. If anything, it only serves to illustrate  political naivety (or a desire to get on someone's hit list).  If one really wants to make a 'legitimate' attempt at changing Illy land practices,  being a powerless alliance and claiming half a territory in TBL is surely not the way to do it. 

I may not approve (and people are surely entitled to their own views), but at least TVM and SIN have some local gravitas to pull off their desire for local change.  Feckless attempts to mirror them, without doing the foundation building to give some rational basis for the claim, just ends up making the overall debate easier to poke fun at.  What's wrong with growing the alliance a bit more and at least becoming a dominant local power before calling attention to yourself?  Perhaps claim a dedicated homeland settlement target first (without making empty threats about removing interlopers you can't enforce anyway) ?  If you are successful in creating some critical mass...  then go for it . . .  but at least make the claim based in some reality.

 [ Ok, the entire HAN alliance has 3/4's of the population of my main account (and I'd guess < 1/10th of the military) so, if they get half a territory in TBL...   could I legitimately claim more?  -- time for another exodus-fest !!! ]

Claims like this are just ...  silly . . .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 23:09
Originally posted by Mona Lisa Mona Lisa wrote:

What's wrong with growing the alliance a bit more and at least becoming a dominant local power before calling attention to yourself?  Perhaps claim a dedicated homeland settlement target first (without making empty threats about removing interlopers you can't enforce anyway) ?
i've no insight into the real motivations of the claimants, but...
  1. calling attention to oneself is the first step in recruiting.
  2. claiming an area larger than one's actual footprint gives the impression of expected growth.
  3. empty threats from a small/weak alliance may be less risky than those from larger/better armed alliances because there is less to risk, and because illy has a entrenched bias in favour of new/small players.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2015 at 02:23
Not trying to argue the point, Angrim, but do explain how "Illy has a[n] entrenched bias in favour of new/small players."  I'm curious as to the boundaries and limits of that bias and other than the kindness shown them when they first start, is there any other 'bias" of which I'm not aware?

Thanks,

AJ
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2015 at 03:50
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

do explain how "Illy has a[n] entrenched bias in favour of new/small players."
illy vets treat new players as precocious children; it takes a great deal of mischief to sour the indulgent attitude of vets toward newbs, who are encouraged to experiment, given obscene amounts of gold and resources, etc. much of this is an attempt to seduce them (in the espionage sense) and some is a more general "more players is better, make them feel welcome" philosophy. when that indulgence stops is anyone's guess, but generally i think an alliance of small players is more likely to be "gently corrected" than be made an example of.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 11:14
I don't think we could say that land claims are good or bad in absolute terms.

Land claims could be good for clustered alliances in growth and could be bad for widespread alliances.

From my point of view, and if you read in detail most of the claims, you can move into an alliance land claim either if you join the alliance that made such claim OR if you speak with the alliance leaders and convince them to let you move without joining.

In the 10-square norm, is considered polite if you ask the player that you are moving near, and if you don't the consequences can be as dangerous as if you move into a land claim without asking. The alliances make that point clear in the forum posts and their profile as do some players in their profile with the 10sq. As far as I know no military hostilities have been initiated by those claiming alliances till the recent war.

The motives about land claims are to protect the cluster from potentially agresive players and alliances to move very close, and to protect settling spots and resources as well. Of course you, eventually, will need the military or dipomacy might to defend those claims from players who disagree and/or have strategic interest in your claim.

With that said, I don't know if the claims are good or no, but I like the idea because they give salt and spice to the game.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 22:47
It's always interesting to take a stand on a controversial subject.  Sometimes, if you are honest and work hard, you may even change your mind.  One of the best ways to accomplish an understanding of the opposing views is to try to lay them out as if you were actually on that side.  Once you have that you may find the arguments you present in opposition to whatever you are arguing, are more convincing than your own arguments.  And at the very least, if you do a good job, you may understand the opposition more and thus be better equipped to convince them.  In that spirit here are the arguments FOR land claim as I have understood them based upon this long and complex thread.

The arguments for land claims suggest the following points:

First:  Illyriad is a game.

Second:  It is a game of conquest and domination. 

Third: Any strategy allowed by the formal rules which enhances an alliance or players ability to conquer and dominate should not be thwarted by "informal rules."

Fourth: The strategy of land claims enhances the ability of alliances and presumably individuals, to conquer and dominate.

Fifth:  If a person or alliance is unable to use a strategy or tactic it only shows that they aren't going to be the ones conquering and dominating.  No need to cry about it...that's the game.

Sixth: Land claims is a strategy which makes the game more attractive to those who will "play, stay and pay."

Finally:  As healthy game is one which attracts new players and keeps old ones, and since land claims will do that, one should not oppose land claims.

More detail.

Illyriad is a game and as such should be required to reflect in any way the "real world"  Whatever is done in the game if for entertainment alone and to make more of it is just silly.  Those who try to argue that behind the avatars are real people need to emphasize to those real people that they shouldn't take things so seriously and if they don't wish to play a game of conquest and domination they should go somewhere else. 

It is a game of conquest and domination.  There are cities to be conquered, lands to dominate and all sorts of wars to be fought.  You cannot conquer without armies and since conquering and dominating are the point of the game, why play if you don't wish to fight?  The developers decided to allow it to be a sandbox exactly as they did not wish to restrict the methods and means of conquering but to allow the gamers to find their own way.  Since the basic design of the game is warfare based it is silly to attempt to change it as it will always return to its roots as new players join, grow and conquer.

The devs made the game to be flexible enough that you can develop new strategies or enhance old ones.  The rules of conquering and dominating are few and only within the range needed to make the game more interesting.  For a player or group of players to burden the game with increased "informal rules" is to restrict some players unnecessarily.  Land claims are just an application of a less formal system that has been in use for a few years.  It's not new so the whole question of "should we allow it" is returning to ground already covered and decided long ago.

Land claims enhance the strategic abilities of alliances and as such make it easier for them to plan their conquest and domination over the long term. 

Land claims in no significantly way restrict other players or alliances unless they are too small or inexperienced and therefore deserve to be conquered and/or dominated.  After all, it's a conquer and dominate game so let's play it that way.  Crybabies can go play Farmville.

The world is filled with all kinds of players who want a good, complex, and flexible game of conquering and domination.  Land claims make that easier and thus will attract more players.  Since more players means more money in the devs pocket it generally means more development done in a shorter amount of time.  This, in turn will bring more players as factions go on line, and all sorts of other suggestions are implemented.

So, if the game is a conquer and dominate game and we make the game a more robust conquer and dominate game we can see new players, new procedures, and all sorts of enhanced play.  All we have to do is get on board the bandwagon for enhanced strategies and tactics as they are discovered and implemented. 

Summary and Conclusion 

Those are the arguments as I understand them.  Do feel free to add/correct my perceptions before I discuss them in a more systematic manner.

I will, of course, after receiving due correction, present a rebuttal.  But lest somebody think I'm setting up a "straw man" argument, I give you the opportunity to correct and make sure the man I intend to knock down isn't a scarecrow.

AJ

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phoenixfire View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 23:47
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Second:  It is a game of conquest and domination. 
No. Illyriad is a game of growing, and then doing whatever you like after you grow. If that happens to be conquering then that is what illy is to you. For some illy is a game of hunting and trading. For others its crafting and trading. Illy is different for everyone. For some making claims it's about growing with their alliance to become stronger as an alliance.


Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Fourth: The strategy of land claims enhances the ability of alliances and presumably individuals, to conquer and dominate.
Yes and No. For those who wish to conquer and dominate it can. However for some it is a way of ensuring we don't get dominated or accidentally shove someone out of a region because we have begun to dominate it through our own growth.

Originally posted by ajqrtz ajqrtz wrote:

Finally:  As healthy game is one which attracts new players and keeps old ones, and since land claims will do that, one should not oppose land claims.
 
See this is where I think some people don't understand quite the premise of land claims. Oppose them all you like. Opposing them is what will bring some light back to illy. However opposing it is not calling it bullying in the forums, opposing it is getting a group of people with the same view to change what you don't like.


I will not be correcting the more detail part as I have already corrected the main point throughout it of "Illy is a conquest and domination game" 


Edited by phoenixfire - 18 Jun 2015 at 23:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2015 at 04:46

STOMP land claim

In the interest of map accuracy, I am wondering if this claim should be represented:

STOMP was created with the intention to strike down alliances whom have the audacity to claim parts of a region as their own

The alliance of STOMP has declared the whole of Elgea and Blasted Lands to be under their control, dictating that all players within these lands must adhere to their practice and policy – essentially, the largest land claim to date. Any players refusing to play by their restrictions and guidelines are subject to hostility. There will be no grandfathering in of players or alliances established prior to this claim, nor will players in violation of this claim have the option to relocate outside of STOMP control.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2015 at 05:56
who will reign victorious? The Pro LC or Anti LC... 



Disclaimer: The above is jcx|orcboy's personal opinion and is not the opinion or policy of Harmless? [H?] or of the little green men that have been following him all day.

jcx in H? | orcboy in H?
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