An Open letter to H? rank and file |
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Deranzin 
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Joined: 10 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 845 |
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 Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 19:53 |
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You are just a bit over-reading the lines dude and no offense ... I will explain to avoid further misunderstandings : I meant what I wrote with the "good tactical mind" because it is a indeed a good tactic to ignore parts of other people's posts ... I do not do it (obviously. Besides you accused me of quite the opposite  ), but I do recognize its worth (for what that's worth). The actual jibe was about the "new future war" you were talking about to remind you of your duplicity over the concept of asking peace here just to set up a new war later on ... As for why you will not find us there, hey it has nothing to do with our being better tacticians but because I can see such topics for what they are ... we will not be there because some people will not rest until we are totally wiped out ... what is so mysterious about it considering the situation .?.
When you use them then, do point out that this is your interpretation and not what people actually said ... else you WILL be called out for slander, just like you did ... Using a "language tool" , just like with every tool, is all about using it within its limits.
Yes, that is because as "evidence" I require something that is EVIDENT like an actual quote and not your "interpretation" which is your "personal opinion". Do kindly defer to the language everyone has agreed on and either give "evidence" or make clear that this is what "you think about all this". |
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  Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p |
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KillerPoodle
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1853 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 19:59 |
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There's no pleasing some people - we do not control the entire server, nor do we tell our allies what to do. We explicitly stated we only wanted to take one city from Gigi and strongly suggested that an alliance who was not even a formal ally at the time, leave it at that. Yet, despite all that, it's somehow still our fault. It's clear there's no reason behind your arguments, just bile. Edited by KillerPoodle - 30 Jun 2014 at 20:00 |
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
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geofrey
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Joined: 31 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 20:30 |
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I want you to disagree with my opinion. I want you to post why. That is why we post comments, to debate opinions. I don't want you to ignore my opinion, and instead attempt to discredit all of my evidence because you disagree with it. Regardless of your interpretation vs my interpretation of the events/evidence, I think we can both agree that there are different valid interpretations of the events. Instead of arguing about interpretations of events, use counter evidence. You have done that, to an extent, and I appreciate those contributions to the discussion. You like to pepper insults into your arguments. It is a clever strategy to anger your opponents and make you appear to be the wiser, but I do not think it adds to the conversation and I wish you would stop. HOWEVER, my wishes are not the command, so to reiterate : By all means continue doing whatever you want. Just don't expect people to appreciate it. To iterate my original point so we can talk about something worth while: My opinion is that H? (including you) have nothing to gain by not surrendering. It appears to me that you are trying a smear campaign against your enemies to try and discredit them from the public and convince them to give up their assault due to low morale. I have already mentioned several pieces of evidence of what I believe to be what I am calling a "smear campaign." I think this is a poor strategy since we see through it. Points of discussion that I would like opinion on: Is it your opinion that H? is trying to discredit their enemies in the eyes of the playerbase? I personally think this is a no brainer. I know that every Illy war I've been on public opinion has been a tool used by both sides. The main difference is it it typically used to tip the scales of military power one way or another. It is my opinion that H?'s cause is lost, and that the time for a smear campaign was gone months ago. Do you think Harmless? stands a chance at a military conquest against their enemies? It is my opinion that this has already been answered with the countless battles of this war. Why is H? choosing not to save their cities? My opinion is that they are not wanting to admit defeat, and think that they could use the threat of "total destruction" to remove support and break morale of their enemies. But as I have stated previously, I don't think this is going to work. |
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Deranzin
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Joined: 10 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 845 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 21:01 |
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Dude you want me to disagree on your opinion on things that I did not say .?. Are you for real .?. And you are calling "foul" over things you perceive when I made clear that I meant none of the things which you generate out of your mind .?.
I posted no interpretation ! How on earth can I interpret my own posts .?. I just explained what I wrote because you were twisting everything out of context and meaning ... at least later on you return to proper discussion and we can have a good dialogue further down the lines ...
I do not like flamey pepper ... I just like to season my posts with some salt of good memory ... you can say that it is an a-salt of sorts (terrible pun, I just couldn't resist it !  ), but I still think that you are "over-reading" my comments ...
Maybe we do not stand anything to gain, but have you thought about the things we stand to lose .?. Some things are worth more - many things more - than cities ... and dignity is only one of these ... Once again, do you honestly know how many times I have analyzed this point on these very same fora .?. Are you insulted if I say that I have written posts which explain such things in detail many times yet you guys deliberately ignore them and keep droning the same things over and over again and toss theories on how OTHER people think and feel even when they explicitly explain you that you are wrong .?.
I, for one, do not need to smear anyone and I have never done so. In this very topic I have expressed my respect for your alliance which practically destroyed most of my cities and the largest portion of my account. Do you call that smearing .?. In that same post I declared my total lack of respect for those that on the days where your alliance and me were fighting, they were happilly tossing lies in GC and gleedully called my account "perma sat" and "abandoned" ... Are those things not true .?. Would you respect those people .?. Is it a smear campaign to recite the facts .?. As you can see, I am answering all your questions and true to my posting habits I am not ignoring even one line of your post and I would like you to extend that same courtesy at least on those questions. Next topic :
Is this a topic created by H? Is there ANY topic created by H? which is aiming to discredit anyone in this fight .?. Sure both sides will all argue and bicker in the forum if the situation arises, but seriously, look at the last page of the "politics and diplomacy" section in this forum and tell me whether there is such a topic trying to discredit your side. Are we vocal of our total disagreement of your "hey it is ok to destroy people policy" .?. Certainly. But since this is a fact, how on earth is that discrediting to you .?. When you take up a course of action, own up to it ... simple logic actually ...
Conquest .?. No. I already said in this topic that this war was totally lopsided from day 1. If you think that I sacrificed my account for some "future conquest" you are wrong ... I also never thought along the lines of "payback" either ... As I told you back then I could recognize the tactical move for my extermination ... I never find that it was particularly needed or that I was an actual threat for a whole alliance, but at least I can say that it made some sense and that we all had fun in the process. 
Remember why I didn't move my cities and extrapolate from that ... Edit: I forgot to say the phrasing "choosing not to save their cities" is incorrect but I will not quibble over that. As in my case, these is a good fight over them, but hey, we cannot be expected to succeed all the time given the odds  /editAs for the "total destruction" "card", that will never come in to play and that is why there is no such tactic as you seem to think ... I can elaborate on my opinion on that if you like ... Speaking of opinions, I will make clear that the above represent my views and certainly no simple member can speak for its whole alliance. Just to be clear. Edited by Deranzin - 30 Jun 2014 at 21:08 |
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p |
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geofrey
Postmaster General
Joined: 31 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 22:01 |
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no.
Yes.
Yes. Reasoning: Just because you don't mean something to happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
When I said "your interpretations" I meant "Your interpretations of the events within the game, and comments from the forums." You state these interpretations by posting your opinion.
First we dont' read enough, now I'm over reading.... geesh. How much reading exactly should I be doing? And by your lead, I am still UNDER-READING everything you say. You set the bar so high on analyzing post, I can only dream of nitpicking as much as you.
yes.
You say your reputation (using this to represent the non-tangible values in the eyes of others, like dignity, honor, freedom,etc) is worth more than playing the game... You will have a much better reputation/dignity/honor if you stop playing all together right now. You'd be Martyr's of the golden age of Illyriad that the Great Alliance destroyed. Conquerors of the great Trove war and "that one guy with a bunch of really long forum post." But instead you'd rather go out as a defeated alliance unable to defend itself with anything but forum post, rather than an alliance capable of dealing with both victory and defeat.
No.
Yes. I am insulted if you presume we all deliberately ignore your post. It shows a lack of understanding of different perspective, regardless if you agree with it.
Yes. I call your demeaning post smearing, as well as other Harmless affiliated post(but not all). You include insults in with facts, and when someones gets offended you get into heated debates claiming "It s only facts" because you are under the delusion that you always win them. I believe these debates (including this one) are a complete waste of time gameplay-wise and make our forums look petty. However it is Monday and I feel like humoring you for entertainment.
Yes. It is my belief that if someone called your account perma sat or abandoned, they thought it was the truth. I believe it is possible for a human to make a mistake. Mistakes, by nature, are not deliberate.
yes.
It can be. All depends on how much of your perspective get's thrown into the facts. Example Headlines: 3 dead in car collision. VS Teenager with cell phone crashes with civilian car; killing 3. Both headlines cover the same story. The story is 2 cars crashed on the interstate. One had a teenager in it, another one had a bunch of drunken farmers driving around town. A teenager was involved, and had a cellphone on them, but was not using it. Both headlines are accurate. One states a much more objective fact than the other. The other tries to imprint a certain perspective on the reader. Attempting to persuade them a reckless teenager was using a cellphone and killed people because of it.
WHAT AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE?
Next topic :
Yes. We are no longer discussing the OP, but the topic of discussion has moved to post shaped by H? comments, as well as my own comments. I admit that I am encouraging this behavior by responding to this nonsense.
Yes. There have been countless changes of topic within ALL of the war related post by H? members to belittle their enemies. 816+ just by you (joking, I know not all of your post are condescending... right?)
Yes, there is such a topic.
We wouldn't be having this conversation if you didn't say something to discredit me. Do you understand that? If not I will be happy to explain cause and effect. EVEN IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU DID ANYTHING WRONG, you can not claim I had no motivation to post a reply to your comments.
Another condescending comment meant to teach the lesser player a lesson.
Smack talk is pointless since you can't back it up. What could you possibly hope to achieve by arguing with your enemies?
I am insulted that you refuse to do so now. Instead you choose to belittle me that to provide a real answer, such is the reputation that you build for Harmless.
I am fully aware that when people speak, or in this case type, it is their opinion and perspective that comes out. I do not believe in omnipotent illyriad players who know and speak only the absolute truth (if there is such a thing.) This was fun, but exhausting. How do you do it?
Edited by geofrey - 30 Jun 2014 at 22:12 |
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Deranzin
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Joined: 10 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 845 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 23:15 |
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When you do not write something and someone claims that you did, that is not something that "happened" ... unless it is slander happening ...
I only quote this because by your logic I should be insulted as well and cry wolf about perceived insults ...
Actually I didn't use the word "reputation" and no it is not only those intangible values they are misrepresented by it that I had in mind. Dignity, honor, freedom are for you a matter of reputation and have no intrinsic value unless perceived by others .?. My congratulations ... if this is not a typo or a misunderstanding, I am officially appalled and that indeed takes quite some effort to achieve ! Someone give the man a "he appauled a Greek guy" medal !
Get this then : I do not care about my reputation. Dignity, honor and many more things have value in and of themselves ... they do not need to be validated by a 3rd party and if they do, then they are worthless imho.
Oh really .?. Wouldn't you love that ...
This is one reputation that I wouldn't escape regardless of the outcome of the game ...
For a person that likes to complain for perceived insults, you are quite good at tossing them yourself ... Is the known bloodthirsty pacifist holding a "veiled insults class" or something .?.
one could argue that actually losing, is in fact dealing with defeat. As for dealing with victory, I needn't comment on that ...
Huh .?. You guys ignore the posts and somehow that shows my "lack of understanding of different perspective" ! ahahaah this is so precious ...
Ok, I retract my statement of respect then if you find it smearing, but only for you since you explicitly asked for it ... I will keep my respect for your alliance if you do not mind. 
I am glad you at least accept that I am loaded with facts ... it is far better than being only armed with insults and inaccuracies ... and that IS a fact.
No, because they really are only facts ... you choose to be offended by facts .?. Try not to actually do those actions then instead of being insulted by people referring to them ... Oh and I see that you tossed another insult by implying that I am childish enough to think that " I win debates" ... I am sorry, but I have never had such a thought-pattern concerning dialogue ...
My sentiment exactly ... see .?. we can agree on something ... the difference is that you are annoyed by "looking petty" when in fact most of the pettiness is generated by you in this post and it is quite past the stage of just appearances ...
Ooohhh reaaallllyy ... they "thought" it was the truth ... and when they learned otherwise, did they publicly apologize .?. NO. Usually a person that does a mistake says "hey, I am sorry for my mistake" ... if not, then someone can indeed assume that the misleading behavior was no mistake and quite deliberate. And something else, validating that I was actively using prestige was so easy ... all they had to do was ask you ... did they do it .?. Nope ... they just went on with the slander ... till I moved a city that is ... now wasn't that fun to watch .?. 
And you have the audacity to claim that I am insulting you .?. Dude you are doing a great job on your own, bravo !
Yeah ... it "can" be ... small fact is that I didn't do anything like your example ...
Whohoo, now an unveiled insult ... man you are no fun ... I do not think that at this point I even need to depict how badly you are biased against me, do I .?. For a person that actively tried to siege me out of the game, you are quite angry you know that .?. It should have been the other way around, but it isn't ... if this is your behavior when you are winning, I really do shudder to think how you'd behave if you had been in my shoes losing cities with the rate I did ... Do explain us something though ... how can you claim on the same post that you have not read all of my posts and feign ignorance of them (even get insulted later on) and then go on to deliver judgement on all of them .?. Isn't this quite the contradiction or not .?.
What is the title then .?. I see no topic by any H? member, excluding the " Endgame war statistics & future reference" created by me and which contains only battle reports. .
Tsk tsk tsk so much anger ... Do explain us about cause and effect, I'd be happy to hear of those old friends ... are they well .?.
Well, you are the first one to be insulted by the phrase "simple logic actually" when followed by a trivial known by everyone to be true statement like "When you take up a course of action, own up to it" ... I have more than 20.000 posts in fora and this is the first time I've seen it happen ... oh, and that is a fact.
Plenty of things ... stop them from spreading lies about abandoned and perma-sat accounts, for example ...
Said the person that easily judges all my posts while claiming at the same time of not having read them and also ignores my last paragraph where I explicitly state that all these posts are my opinion and not my alliance's and a simple member could never represent a whole alliance ! Bravo ! How quaint ! Aren't you the one judging ALL my posts .?. How then can you be insulted when I point out that I have replied your question in an earlier one .?. Explain that please ... In order to be doing so then you must have read them (or else you are slandering me and my posts), so I do not need to answer again on things that I have repeatedly said.
Oh, really .?. Then do try to use that "awareness", because you failed to do so in your post ... Bottomline : I found this altercation amusing especially since it got you off your "high horse", shattered your "mask of dignity" and depicted your "oh look look there might be an insult in this phrase" quest ... the amount of bias, anger and contradiction in your posts was on quite a good level, but you cannot make me stoop to your kind of behavior. I am not a native English speaker, so I only like to express logic and facts and stick with them ... despite that, I can deal with posts like yours indefinitely if you are game for it, but do know that I always deal with such forum attacks, like I did with my account being destroyed. And this is : with a smile Edit: I just saw this edit :
My all time record is 21 word pages (quotes included) in one other forum some years ago ... that thing got so gigantic that I just had to write it outside the browser form ... compared to that (and other gargantuan posts I did back in the day), this is barely a warm-up. Just a fact, again.  Edited by Deranzin - 30 Jun 2014 at 23:23 |
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p |
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DaniSuper
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Joined: 15 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 01:59 |
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This is indeed a hot topic! I think after reading all the posts, I can say one thing, H? does have quite a few loyal members in its ranks. In my view such dedication and loyalty towards friends and alliance is remarkable :D So Kudos on that !
Another thing which proves that Illy is not just a war game, the social aspects here are very strong :)
P.S These are my personal opinions only :D
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geofrey
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Joined: 31 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 02:05 |
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I apologize, I hit post instead of preview and had to go back and edit some stuff that cleans up a bit of the points you posted. (but I did it before you commented!)
And yes, I was on a high horse of bettering the game. That was my original intent. I put aside my opinion on several thing sin an attempt to drive the discussion to something more fruitful. But we both seem to take joy out of analysis and debate, so i exploded it out for the sack of debate, and like I said it's Monday. Plus I am feeding off of your style a bit and mimicing it. It is an interesting method of commenting, but does lend itself to anger issues. I do want to take a second to talk about dignity, freedom, and honor. They are social concepts that only exist in a social settings. Part of those concepts are that you exclude certain people from your ideals. As in you are honorable because other people are not, etc. To say you dont care about your reputation, only about doing the honorable thing, or maintaining your dignity, you are really saying you want to be the most dignified person in the community. Which is a reputation. You said english is not your first language, so that may be why this does not translate well. It is a difficult concept to understand. A person can not be honorable by themselves, just like they can't be tall. They can only be more tall than some, and less tall than others. It is a social hierarchy thing. For example if you took all of the tall people in the world, put them on tall island, there would still be short people on that island. And to say they do not need to be validated by a 3rd person is completely false. Your entire concept of dignity, for example, is based on other people that you have looked up to (real or fictional). You want to be just as dignified as that person, or more dignified than your father, etc. (examples). On a similar note, it is apparent you take great joy in your comments. You are very good at them. I do believe you are under the assumption that you come across as the superior debater when you comment. And in many regards this is true. But there are several players who just see all of the stuff me and you are typing as a waste of time. And even more that see it as a reason NOT to play the game. I think this is summed up best by you admitting to taking joy at getting me to come off that high horse of bettering the game, as you mentioned. If i am to understand the jest of your accusations, you are very upset that people were wrong about you being a sat account, but would not apologize publicly. I don't know the reason for this, but maybe they cared about some intangible concept too much to apologize. And to insult them for having that opinion would make you a hypocrite. And as you pointed out at my earlier statements, no one likes a hypocrite. As to how I deal with defeat? Look at my previous post in the history of Illy. concerning the surrender of my alliance to the BSH during the Great Trove War as an example of my mindset immediately after being destroying by superior forces, loosing cities, and being forced to terms I didn't want. This is fun. I was not angry earlier, just didn't want to use bold to highlight sentences for emphasis, as bolding was already used above and I Wasn't for sure how it would come across. |
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dantem
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Joined: 21 Apr 2014 Location: The Room Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 03:47 |
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There is such a thing...The Chocolate empire is omnipotent and speaks only the absolute truth!! Sorry I couldn't resist lol, on a more serious note though I come from the now infamous LOU game and it is a strictly war/military actioned game where if you don't fight your dead and where it was common for a player who had over 200 cities to be completely wiped out in a matter of weeks. Coming here, firstly I was shocked with everyone being nice and helping out newbies, something I have not seen in any online games, no matter the genre. I was a little worried that there was something else going on, but I learned that everyone was just nice. Then I hear about this war thing, when I asked what alliances I should join. I joined this game sometime in in April/May and I am not aware of much of the history except for the posts in the forums, which are very contradicting if you read through them, so I am still not sure on the reasons for the war. The impression i got from GC and others was the H? is some kind of evil alliance who were taking over the game and had to be put down. I don't remember who said what, but that was the impression given. It was a colored opinion and I did not know enough then, so I kept it. Then there were a series of events, including in which I had sent some diplo units to a sov square of dittobite, which I know is like a call saying I'm stupid and attack me, but it transpired differently and that got me trying to find out more about this war and to the forums. I would say mistakes have been made on both sides and now there is not going to be an end to this war till H? is destroyed, which I think is sad. Destroying entire accounts in a war will definetly have a negative impact on this game. I've seen thousands of players leave the game in LOU because of this very reason and this is something that is against what Illy as a game is to me, where members help newbies, teach them, wont let a newbie get attacked and so on. I think this needs to stop, so here is my suggestion on this thing Get a neutral alliance/person to barter an agreement with where both H? & GA state what they are willing to do to end this war. The peace offering made by GA here, I believe is unacceptable to H? and so is the H? offering of an end with just a simple cease fire with no one giving anything to anyone else. I know this can turn into another conversation where everyone blames each other, so I propose that you find a player/alliance who has not been too long in this game, and who you all know will be neutral and only terms are discussed. This will keep things from turning into a war of words like it has in the forums. This will only work if both sides actually want peace. So Cheers P.S the chocolate empire has 2 chocolate tester spots open and if anyone wishes to apply, please read my profile.
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I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them vodka, and have a party.
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KillerPoodle
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1853 |
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Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 04:20 |
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If this is really true then stop supporting people whose modus operandi is to wipe people out and join the side of sweetness, light, unicorns, cute kittens and harmlessness. |
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
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geofrey wrote: