An Open letter to H? rank and file |
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DaniSuper 
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Joined: 15 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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 Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 01:59 |
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This is indeed a hot topic! I think after reading all the posts, I can say one thing, H? does have quite a few loyal members in its ranks. In my view such dedication and loyalty towards friends and alliance is remarkable :D So Kudos on that !
Another thing which proves that Illy is not just a war game, the social aspects here are very strong :)
P.S These are my personal opinions only :D
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Deranzin
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Joined: 10 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 845 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 23:15 |
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When you do not write something and someone claims that you did, that is not something that "happened" ... unless it is slander happening ...
I only quote this because by your logic I should be insulted as well and cry wolf about perceived insults ... 
Actually I didn't use the word "reputation" and no it is not only those intangible values they are misrepresented by it that I had in mind. Dignity, honor, freedom are for you a matter of reputation and have no intrinsic value unless perceived by others .?. My congratulations ... if this is not a typo or a misunderstanding, I am officially appalled and that indeed takes quite some effort to achieve ! Someone give the man a "he appauled a Greek guy" medal !
Get this then : I do not care about my reputation. Dignity, honor and many more things have value in and of themselves ... they do not need to be validated by a 3rd party and if they do, then they are worthless imho.
Oh really .?. Wouldn't you love that ...
This is one reputation that I wouldn't escape regardless of the outcome of the game ...
For a person that likes to complain for perceived insults, you are quite good at tossing them yourself ... Is the known bloodthirsty pacifist holding a "veiled insults class" or something .?.
one could argue that actually losing, is in fact dealing with defeat. As for dealing with victory, I needn't comment on that ...
Huh .?. You guys ignore the posts and somehow that shows my "lack of understanding of different perspective" ! ahahaah this is so precious ...
Ok, I retract my statement of respect then if you find it smearing, but only for you since you explicitly asked for it ... I will keep my respect for your alliance if you do not mind. 
I am glad you at least accept that I am loaded with facts ... it is far better than being only armed with insults and inaccuracies ... and that IS a fact.
No, because they really are only facts ... you choose to be offended by facts .?. Try not to actually do those actions then instead of being insulted by people referring to them ...  Oh and I see that you tossed another insult by implying that I am childish enough to think that " I win debates" ... I am sorry, but I have never had such a thought-pattern concerning dialogue ...
My sentiment exactly ... see .?. we can agree on something ... the difference is that you are annoyed by "looking petty" when in fact most of the pettiness is generated by you in this post and it is quite past the stage of just appearances ...
Ooohhh reaaallllyy ... they "thought" it was the truth ... and when they learned otherwise, did they publicly apologize .?. NO. Usually a person that does a mistake says "hey, I am sorry for my mistake" ... if not, then someone can indeed assume that the misleading behavior was no mistake and quite deliberate. And something else, validating that I was actively using prestige was so easy ... all they had to do was ask you ... did they do it .?. Nope ... they just went on with the slander ... till I moved a city that is ... now wasn't that fun to watch .?. 
And you have the audacity to claim that I am insulting you .?. Dude you are doing a great job on your own, bravo !
Yeah ... it "can" be ... small fact is that I didn't do anything like your example ...
Whohoo, now an unveiled insult ... man you are no fun ... I do not think that at this point I even need to depict how badly you are biased against me, do I .?. For a person that actively tried to siege me out of the game, you are quite angry you know that .?. It should have been the other way around, but it isn't ... if this is your behavior when you are winning, I really do shudder to think how you'd behave if you had been in my shoes losing cities with the rate I did ... Do explain us something though ... how can you claim on the same post that you have not read all of my posts and feign ignorance of them (even get insulted later on) and then go on to deliver judgement on all of them .?. Isn't this quite the contradiction or not .?.
What is the title then .?. I see no topic by any H? member, excluding the " Endgame war statistics & future reference" created by me and which contains only battle reports. .
Tsk tsk tsk so much anger ... Do explain us about cause and effect, I'd be happy to hear of those old friends ... are they well .?.
Well, you are the first one to be insulted by the phrase "simple logic actually" when followed by a trivial known by everyone to be true statement like "When you take up a course of action, own up to it" ... I have more than 20.000 posts in fora and this is the first time I've seen it happen ... oh, and that is a fact.
Plenty of things ... stop them from spreading lies about abandoned and perma-sat accounts, for example ...
Said the person that easily judges all my posts while claiming at the same time of not having read them and also ignores my last paragraph where I explicitly state that all these posts are my opinion and not my alliance's and a simple member could never represent a whole alliance ! Bravo ! How quaint ! Aren't you the one judging ALL my posts .?. How then can you be insulted when I point out that I have replied your question in an earlier one .?. Explain that please ... In order to be doing so then you must have read them (or else you are slandering me and my posts), so I do not need to answer again on things that I have repeatedly said.
Oh, really .?. Then do try to use that "awareness", because you failed to do so in your post ... Bottomline : I found this altercation amusing especially since it got you off your "high horse", shattered your "mask of dignity" and depicted your "oh look look there might be an insult in this phrase" quest ... the amount of bias, anger and contradiction in your posts was on quite a good level, but you cannot make me stoop to your kind of behavior. I am not a native English speaker, so I only like to express logic and facts and stick with them ... despite that, I can deal with posts like yours indefinitely if you are game for it, but do know that I always deal with such forum attacks, like I did with my account being destroyed. And this is : with a smile Edit: I just saw this edit :
My all time record is 21 word pages (quotes included) in one other forum some years ago ... that thing got so gigantic that I just had to write it outside the browser form ... compared to that (and other gargantuan posts I did back in the day), this is barely a warm-up. Just a fact, again.  Edited by Deranzin - 30 Jun 2014 at 23:23 |
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  Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p |
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geofrey
Postmaster General 
Joined: 31 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 22:01 |
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no.
Yes.
Yes. Reasoning: Just because you don't mean something to happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
When I said "your interpretations" I meant "Your interpretations of the events within the game, and comments from the forums." You state these interpretations by posting your opinion.
First we dont' read enough, now I'm over reading.... geesh. How much reading exactly should I be doing? And by your lead, I am still UNDER-READING everything you say. You set the bar so high on analyzing post, I can only dream of nitpicking as much as you.
yes.
You say your reputation (using this to represent the non-tangible values in the eyes of others, like dignity, honor, freedom,etc) is worth more than playing the game... You will have a much better reputation/dignity/honor if you stop playing all together right now. You'd be Martyr's of the golden age of Illyriad that the Great Alliance destroyed. Conquerors of the great Trove war and "that one guy with a bunch of really long forum post." But instead you'd rather go out as a defeated alliance unable to defend itself with anything but forum post, rather than an alliance capable of dealing with both victory and defeat.
No.
Yes. I am insulted if you presume we all deliberately ignore your post. It shows a lack of understanding of different perspective, regardless if you agree with it.
Yes. I call your demeaning post smearing, as well as other Harmless affiliated post(but not all). You include insults in with facts, and when someones gets offended you get into heated debates claiming "It s only facts" because you are under the delusion that you always win them. I believe these debates (including this one) are a complete waste of time gameplay-wise and make our forums look petty. However it is Monday and I feel like humoring you for entertainment.
Yes. It is my belief that if someone called your account perma sat or abandoned, they thought it was the truth. I believe it is possible for a human to make a mistake. Mistakes, by nature, are not deliberate.
yes.
It can be. All depends on how much of your perspective get's thrown into the facts. Example Headlines: 3 dead in car collision. VS Teenager with cell phone crashes with civilian car; killing 3. Both headlines cover the same story. The story is 2 cars crashed on the interstate. One had a teenager in it, another one had a bunch of drunken farmers driving around town. A teenager was involved, and had a cellphone on them, but was not using it. Both headlines are accurate. One states a much more objective fact than the other. The other tries to imprint a certain perspective on the reader. Attempting to persuade them a reckless teenager was using a cellphone and killed people because of it.
WHAT AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE?
Next topic :
Yes. We are no longer discussing the OP, but the topic of discussion has moved to post shaped by H? comments, as well as my own comments. I admit that I am encouraging this behavior by responding to this nonsense.
Yes. There have been countless changes of topic within ALL of the war related post by H? members to belittle their enemies. 816+ just by you (joking, I know not all of your post are condescending... right?)
Yes, there is such a topic.
We wouldn't be having this conversation if you didn't say something to discredit me. Do you understand that? If not I will be happy to explain cause and effect. EVEN IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU DID ANYTHING WRONG, you can not claim I had no motivation to post a reply to your comments.
Another condescending comment meant to teach the lesser player a lesson.
Smack talk is pointless since you can't back it up. What could you possibly hope to achieve by arguing with your enemies?
I am insulted that you refuse to do so now. Instead you choose to belittle me that to provide a real answer, such is the reputation that you build for Harmless.
I am fully aware that when people speak, or in this case type, it is their opinion and perspective that comes out. I do not believe in omnipotent illyriad players who know and speak only the absolute truth (if there is such a thing.) This was fun, but exhausting. How do you do it?
Edited by geofrey - 30 Jun 2014 at 22:12 |
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Deranzin
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Joined: 10 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 845 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 21:01 |
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Dude you want me to disagree on your opinion on things that I did not say .?. Are you for real .?. And you are calling "foul" over things you perceive when I made clear that I meant none of the things which you generate out of your mind .?.
I posted no interpretation ! How on earth can I interpret my own posts .?. I just explained what I wrote because you were twisting everything out of context and meaning ... at least later on you return to proper discussion and we can have a good dialogue further down the lines ...
I do not like flamey pepper ... I just like to season my posts with some salt of good memory ... you can say that it is an a-salt of sorts (terrible pun, I just couldn't resist it ! ), but I still think that you are "over-reading" my comments ...
Maybe we do not stand anything to gain, but have you thought about the things we stand to lose .?. Some things are worth more - many things more - than cities ... and dignity is only one of these ... Once again, do you honestly know how many times I have analyzed this point on these very same fora .?. Are you insulted if I say that I have written posts which explain such things in detail many times yet you guys deliberately ignore them and keep droning the same things over and over again and toss theories on how OTHER people think and feel even when they explicitly explain you that you are wrong .?.
I, for one, do not need to smear anyone and I have never done so. In this very topic I have expressed my respect for your alliance which practically destroyed most of my cities and the largest portion of my account. Do you call that smearing .?. In that same post I declared my total lack of respect for those that on the days where your alliance and me were fighting, they were happilly tossing lies in GC and gleedully called my account "perma sat" and "abandoned" ... Are those things not true .?. Would you respect those people .?. Is it a smear campaign to recite the facts .?. As you can see, I am answering all your questions and true to my posting habits I am not ignoring even one line of your post and I would like you to extend that same courtesy at least on those questions. Next topic :
Is this a topic created by H? Is there ANY topic created by H? which is aiming to discredit anyone in this fight .?. Sure both sides will all argue and bicker in the forum if the situation arises, but seriously, look at the last page of the "politics and diplomacy" section in this forum and tell me whether there is such a topic trying to discredit your side. Are we vocal of our total disagreement of your "hey it is ok to destroy people policy" .?. Certainly. But since this is a fact, how on earth is that discrediting to you .?. When you take up a course of action, own up to it ... simple logic actually ...
Conquest .?. No. I already said in this topic that this war was totally lopsided from day 1. If you think that I sacrificed my account for some "future conquest" you are wrong ... I also never thought along the lines of "payback" either ... As I told you back then I could recognize the tactical move for my extermination ... I never find that it was particularly needed or that I was an actual threat for a whole alliance, but at least I can say that it made some sense and that we all had fun in the process. 
 Remember why I didn't move my cities and extrapolate from that ... Edit: I forgot to say the phrasing "choosing not to save their cities" is incorrect but I will not quibble over that. As in my case, these is a good fight over them, but hey, we cannot be expected to succeed all the time given the odds /editAs for the "total destruction" "card", that will never come in to play and that is why there is no such tactic as you seem to think ... I can elaborate on my opinion on that if you like ... Speaking of opinions, I will make clear that the above represent my views and certainly no simple member can speak for its whole alliance. Just to be clear. Edited by Deranzin - 30 Jun 2014 at 21:08 |
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p |
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geofrey
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Joined: 31 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 20:30 |
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I want you to disagree with my opinion. I want you to post why. That is why we post comments, to debate opinions. I don't want you to ignore my opinion, and instead attempt to discredit all of my evidence because you disagree with it. Regardless of your interpretation vs my interpretation of the events/evidence, I think we can both agree that there are different valid interpretations of the events. Instead of arguing about interpretations of events, use counter evidence. You have done that, to an extent, and I appreciate those contributions to the discussion. You like to pepper insults into your arguments. It is a clever strategy to anger your opponents and make you appear to be the wiser, but I do not think it adds to the conversation and I wish you would stop. HOWEVER, my wishes are not the command, so to reiterate : By all means continue doing whatever you want. Just don't expect people to appreciate it. To iterate my original point so we can talk about something worth while: My opinion is that H? (including you) have nothing to gain by not surrendering. It appears to me that you are trying a smear campaign against your enemies to try and discredit them from the public and convince them to give up their assault due to low morale. I have already mentioned several pieces of evidence of what I believe to be what I am calling a "smear campaign." I think this is a poor strategy since we see through it. Points of discussion that I would like opinion on: Is it your opinion that H? is trying to discredit their enemies in the eyes of the playerbase? I personally think this is a no brainer. I know that every Illy war I've been on public opinion has been a tool used by both sides. The main difference is it it typically used to tip the scales of military power one way or another. It is my opinion that H?'s cause is lost, and that the time for a smear campaign was gone months ago. Do you think Harmless? stands a chance at a military conquest against their enemies? It is my opinion that this has already been answered with the countless battles of this war. Why is H? choosing not to save their cities? My opinion is that they are not wanting to admit defeat, and think that they could use the threat of "total destruction" to remove support and break morale of their enemies. But as I have stated previously, I don't think this is going to work. |
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KillerPoodle
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1853 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 19:59 |
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There's no pleasing some people - we do not control the entire server, nor do we tell our allies what to do. We explicitly stated we only wanted to take one city from Gigi and strongly suggested that an alliance who was not even a formal ally at the time, leave it at that. Yet, despite all that, it's somehow still our fault. It's clear there's no reason behind your arguments, just bile. Edited by KillerPoodle - 30 Jun 2014 at 20:00 |
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"This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
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Deranzin
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Joined: 10 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 845 |
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 19:53 |
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You are just a bit over-reading the lines dude and no offense ... I will explain to avoid further misunderstandings : I meant what I wrote with the "good tactical mind" because it is a indeed a good tactic to ignore parts of other people's posts ... I do not do it (obviously. Besides you accused me of quite the opposite ), but I do recognize its worth (for what that's worth). The actual jibe was about the "new future war" you were talking about to remind you of your duplicity over the concept of asking peace here just to set up a new war later on ... As for why you will not find us there, hey it has nothing to do with our being better tacticians but because I can see such topics for what they are ... we will not be there because some people will not rest until we are totally wiped out ... what is so mysterious about it considering the situation .?.
When you use them then, do point out that this is your interpretation and not what people actually said ... else you WILL be called out for slander, just like you did ... Using a "language tool" , just like with every tool, is all about using it within its limits.
Yes, that is because as "evidence" I require something that is EVIDENT like an actual quote and not your "interpretation" which is your "personal opinion". Do kindly defer to the language everyone has agreed on and either give "evidence" or make clear that this is what "you think about all this". |
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p |
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Hora
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 19:40 |
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Me draws two fraction lines, does some cancelling up and down the line... ...oops... I got 1=1 .... damn, probably wrong prove... back to thesis A  Sorry, really couldn't resist this trolling, seeing the sentences aligned so beautifully
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geofrey
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 19:38 |
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here you use sarcasm to insinuate a bad tactical mind. And then you further drive a wedge between us by presuming I will use my "good tacticle mind (sarcasm) to engage in a future war, that you wont join due to your superior tactical mind. Your are demeaning, regardless if you accept it. The same way you use language tools like sarcasm and rhetorical questions, I use comparative similes or metaphors like "incompetent idiots" to sum up the general verbiage used to insult people. I don't know why you insist on challenging the validity of my post. Your issues seem to be centered on the verbiage I use, and not on the point of my post. You have yet to actually respond to my main point. Instead you continue to attempt to invalidate the evidence I have presented, and you are doing it poorly.
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Deranzin
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Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 19:34 |
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When the alternative is far worse than the current situation, then what exactly is there to be glad about, I wonder ... |
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Just like a "before and after" ad ! ahahahaah :p |
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geofrey wrote: