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Sybil
New Poster
Joined: 26 May 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 3
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Posted: 26 May 2012 at 10:02 |
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dunnoob
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Location: Elijal
Status: Offline
Points: 800
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Posted: 26 May 2012 at 10:39 |
Basil wrote:
the cost of sov on that tower would be prohibitive for the lower city |
Not necessarily. Please correct me if I get it wrong, sov I would cost 424 gold and 42 RP per hour. If the ruined tower is say a 12 clay square it can give you a 2.4% clay bonus for level 1.
Four level 20 clay pits would yield 10152 clay per hour, and for that a 2.4% bonus is roughly 243 clay per hour. The average price for clay on the market might be 2.2 (or more), for that price the bonus corresponds to 536 gold per hour. You'd win 112 gold per hour by claiming the clay sov, and that can justify the 42 RP. Slight modification, a 16 clay square and a town with three level 20 clay pits would also yield a bonus of 243 clay per hour, and with less total clay the bonus might be worth 42 RP. With a chancery this is not prohibitive. Earlier Kumomoto wrote that even distance 5 could be still economically interesting.
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Daufer
Forum Warrior
Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 332
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Posted: 26 May 2012 at 14:54 |
dunnoob wrote:
Not necessarily. Please correct me if I get it wrong, sov I would cost 424 gold and 42 RP per hour. If the ruined tower is say a 12 clay square it can give you a 2.4% clay bonus for level 1.
Four level 20 clay pits would yield 10152 clay per hour, and for that a 2.4% bonus is roughly 243 clay per hour. The average price for clay on the market might be 2.2 (or more), for that price the bonus corresponds to 536 gold per hour. You'd win 112 gold per hour by claiming the clay sov, and that can justify the 42 RP. |
Or for a mere 40 RP an 400 GPH you could claim Sov IV on an adjacent square, get a 4% bonus to clay production, and sell the extra 400 clay for 880 gold per hour. Though personally I would rather allocate all the squares to somethng more valuable like food, advanced resources or troop production.
Claiming distant squares for sov usually only makes sense if you have already claimed everything nearby that was marginally productive and the distant square is so spectacular that the benefit minus cost outweighs the benefit of reallocating a closer square to the same task. On large, developed cities where you already have nineteen sovereign structures and have to position the twentieth and final structure for maximum benefit this can be an important consideration.
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HonoredMule
Postmaster General
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1650
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Posted: 26 May 2012 at 15:41 |
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4 closer tiles take up 4 sovereignty structures from your limit of 20.
Distance-based cost is not a trump factor, especially if you're using a
2-3 chanceries and a large number of lvl 1 claims--and I believe you'll
find that's exactly what the largest players are doing, along with
religiously choosing 7-food city locations.
This sort of thing is
coming up several times and it's clear that many people in the
conversation are basing their viewpoints on a lack of experience or
understanding on how to effectively optimize sovereignty benefits or
understand the tradeoffs and opportunity costs. No, you cannot
"catch up" with a 7-food city on 5 food, because every resource,
sovereignty claim, and tax point you use to "catch up" was supposed to
achieve further gain in production, output, or population. Raising
population increases income with no tradeoff. Raising taxes cuts into
research and basic resource output, making compound cutbacks in
sovereignty and T2 building capacity. Similarly, you cannot waste
multiple claims matching the benefit you could get from a single one and
call it anything but a net loss.
Rationalizing these sub-optimal situations is just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
And in case I haven't been clear enough, the limits of research output
combined with the benefits of Chanceries make level one sovereignty
claims king.
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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now." - HonoredMule
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Silverlake
Forum Warrior
Joined: 15 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 417
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Posted: 26 May 2012 at 16:37 |
HonoredMule wrote:
No, you cannot
"catch up" with a 7-food city on 5 food, because every resource,
sovereignty claim, and tax point you use to "catch up" was supposed to
achieve further gain in production, output, or population. |
WORD, but ignorance is bliss (or just a lack of basic math skills)
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Sloter
Forum Warrior
Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 304
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Posted: 26 May 2012 at 17:45 |
Dlords just stated publicly something that other 99% players are doing so i dont see anything bad in their statement.10sq rule itself is diferent subject and time for discusing it has come and gone long ago.As time goes by less and less players would question 10 sq rule, those that can make diferens are not going to question it, it is not like big players will have problem finding good spot for their 11th city as for smaller player that will soon be out of good spots for settling, well maybe their alliances should said something when time for that was right.It was also interesting to see small fledgling alliances adopting 10 sq rule among first alliances to do so without knowing they are shooting them self in a leg.10sq rule is here to stay now, time to question that has passed in silence.I suport Dlords claim.10sq has become one of those unwritten laws of Illy long ago before Dlords made it public.
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Llyorn Of Jaensch
Postmaster
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 924
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Posted: 26 May 2012 at 22:23 |
HonoredMule wrote:
And in case I haven't been clear enough, the limits of research output
combined with the benefits of Chanceries make level one sovereignty
claims king.
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Lets not forget a key Sov advantage. Detriment to opposing force's siege. A level 5 Sov takes exponentially longer than a lvl 1 to eliminate Sov and therefor the occupying forces detriment.
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"ouch...best of luck." HonoredMule
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HonoredMule
Postmaster General
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1650
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Posted: 27 May 2012 at 02:17 |
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Level 5 sov is great for adjacent tiles which are cheap anyway and offer a nice boon when attacking enemy occupations. But an enemy occupation on a sovereign square is supposed to immediately halt all other benefit from that square anyway, isn't it? It hardly matters how long the claim takes to drop if it stops supporting the city right away.
If I wanted to disrupt a city, I'd just spam 2 minute token occupations on all sovereign tiles. The city under fire would be unable to inflict serious damage in retaliation, nor--since the claim occupation must be from the same city--be nearly able to keep up with the sovereignty claims getting canceled.
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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now." - HonoredMule
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 27 May 2012 at 04:04 |
Afaik, the benefits from the sov square only cease when the other player counterclaims sov. Nevertheless, one could counterclaim the sov and then immediately cancel with limited cost. I haven't done this with sovs over level 1, so I don't know if counterclaims reduce the "opposing" sov by levels or all at once. Would be more interesting if done the former way.
If a city were highly dependent on food sov, this tactic could be of value although it would of course either require very close distances between warring cities or that the side claiming the sov substantially outnumber the side defending; otherwise presumably each side would have better uses for commanders.
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Dew
Greenhorn
Joined: 21 Nov 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 55
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Posted: 27 May 2012 at 11:22 |
HonoredMule wrote:
But an enemy occupation on a sovereign square is supposed to immediately halt all other benefit from that square anyway, isn't it?
If I wanted to disrupt a city, I'd just spam 2 minute token occupations on all sovereign tiles. The city under fire would be unable to inflict serious damage in retaliation, nor--since the claim occupation must be from the same city--be nearly able to keep up with the sovereignty claims getting canceled.
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i thought this only stopped productivity while the army occupied and once the army was gone things resumed to normal, unless of course the army made a sovereignty claim on the tile. and then i thought a claiming army needed to meet or exceed the sovereignty currently being claimed on it. so wouldn't it be cost prohibitive to use this tactic. or am i missing something.
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