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Topic ClosedA statement from the Dwarven Lords...

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Kumomoto View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 03:12
As Suanne said, when you have limited resources and humans, you will get conflict. If anyone wants to contradict that, I'll refer you to the History Section of the bookstore. Try reading it.

And, I'm sure Sauron would have responded brilliantly to Aragorn's entreaties to just hug it out...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 03:02
I personally respect other peoples areas and am easy to get along with.
But realistically, people are people and there will be conflict, and after all this is a game,
everyone is trying to be best.  Good luck to all
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 02:53
P.S.  Small is beautiful, and that doesn't just apply to dwarves.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 02:52
I disagree.  I think there is enough for everyone if we choose to use it wisely.  There may be people who believe it is more fun to have lots of conflict, and that's another reason to have more conflict.  But saying there will be more conflict because somehow there isn't "enough" lacks logical foundation.  It's about people making choices.  I personally hope that people will choose to respect other people's choices to the greatest degree possible.

Live and let live.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 02:44
Originally posted by dunnoob dunnoob wrote:

Let's see, I'm not yet sure.  At the moment there is a maximum of 150 sov squares per city, on a map with about 3,000,000 claimable squares.  In theory that's enough for about 20,000 huge cities belonging to 2000 huge players.

There are 2,000 squares wide by 2,000 tall on the map. By my calculation, that makes 4,000,000 squares, no?

And Illy is a sandbox. The pertinent word being "box". There are limited things here. We have had the luxury of being the early players in a game (like early settlers in North America) and had as much space as we want. Eventually that runs out. It should. And then we get to see the real dynamics I believe the GMs are looking to create...

So every alliance that can, imo, should be instituting a 10 square rule, because you will need it in the future (or want the land). And if folks accuse people of doing so of being selfish or alliance centric, I would advocate telling them that it is merely prudent.

We are going to, imo, in the near future, see a real test to Illy's community when resources are, in essence, no longer unlimited. And it's easy to be friends with everyone when you don't need to fight for anything to survive/thrive.

So, imo, Illy needs to harden the f up and prepare for a less Disney time where relationships will be tested, confeds hardened in blood, and much of the drippy lovey dovey nature of the game goes by the wayside.  Snuggles don't provide food and go ahead, give the next Orc you see on the battlefield a hug. I'm sure he'll appreciate your kindness while roasting your haunch on a spit for dinner later. 

Imo, all this does NOT, however, have to change our core principle as a community, that Newbies are protected. And shouldn't.

In my opinion, to use a phrase that Jordan Sparks stole, "Better Go and Get Your Armor".

Kumomoto




Edited by Kumomoto - 20 May 2012 at 02:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 02:03
Its best to play the game the way it is built today.. (or how ever it goes.) I agree, but that is stupid to do when you should always be planning ahead.

The 10square rule is there to not only protect the person that was there first, but to protect the player that moved there. If Alliance walls come into play, would you want one of your towns stuck inside that alliance wall? (Wont come out this year, probably not even by Christmas next year-maybe with alot of luck with pathfind?) What if crafting adds new sov, makes sov cheaper, makes new kinds of sov you can claim? Stuff like this can and most likely will happen later on. Think if your less then 10 squares away, do you want your town next to a town that is stronger then you?

Play the game the way its built today. Yet if you don't plan for the advancements do not cry when your city evidently gets siege off the map.

Alliance have the 10 square rule to keep problems from occurring.  Plus its just less explaining.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 01:59
As Illy becomes more crowded, arguments based on stunting someone's future potential will become less convincing.  When keeping options open to allow for one's own future growth inhibits the abilities of others to grow in the present, it's hard to make a case for it.  That is not YET the case in Illy; there are still plenty of decent spots to settle cities.  However, there is a foreseeable future when sharing and compromise might be the ideal solution.

It is of course possible that this could evolve into a battle of the "strong" vs. the "weak," where the stronger players and alliances are able to claim territory they don't need now but might need in some imagined future, whereas the weaker players and alliances are consigned to the margins.

My personal hope is that we will be able to make different choices, and that the strong will not seek to exploit every advantage simply because they can.  Thus far many of the more powerful players and alliances, including HM and H? have demonstrated a willingness to do so.  Hopefully that will continue.

In whatever case, it will be interesting to see the situation evolve.  No need to raise alarms yet, imnsho.  So far I think people are working quite well together for the most part.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 01:45
Quote But if the squares in the middle of distance 10 are ordinary squares, without any unique bonus from both POVs, your specific argument for a general 10sq claim does not hold.


"But if" means a conditional clause, which completely short-circuits any arguments regarding a general rule.  Exceptions abound, and negotiating to take advantage of them is simple.  Coming up with public rules that somehow carefully reserve only the bare minimum that a person might want with consideration of the circumstances is beyond infeasible.  "Don't come within 10 squares without working out an agreement" wraps all that complexity in a simple package with a nice little bow.  Frankly, this is really like saying the opposite--that "I promise not to be bothered by your arrival, even if it's unannounced, so long as this margin of breathing room is maintained.

At least one third of all land squares don't really qualify as "normal," in the sense that they have production bonuses or >5 plots for some resource.  When you have a well-developed city and fully understand the economic tradeoffs, you will want exactly 20 sovereign claims (and typically no more only because we're limited to 20 sovereign structures).  Depending on what you're attempting to accomplish at the moment, how you're specializing the city, and how quickly you want to be able to react to changing needs, it is feasible to maintain up to 30 sovereign claims all the time.  (Example: currently focused on max livestock production, then war starts.  You delete 10 lvl 1 livestock-boosting structures from their optimal locations and immediately build 10 infantry-boosting structures on the other previously unused lvl 1 claims which have better infantry bonuses).  I don't think many will go that route, but it's a valid strategy.

Ultimately, it's true that the vast majority of cases under current conditions will not have a problem when cities are as close as 7-8 tiles away.  But that could change tomorrow, and undoing a 3-month exodus+rebuild is a hell of a price to pay for lack of foresight--especially if it was someone else's foresight that fell so short as to stunt your potential.
"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 00:49
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

 Who said anything about claiming all the squares?  If you have to resort to hyperbole to counterpoint, well...
 Let's see, I'm not yet sure.  At the moment there is a maximum of 150 sov squares per city, on a map with about 3,000,000 claimable squares.  In theory that's enough for about 20,000 huge cities belonging to 2000 huge players.  And some Dwarven Lords certainly are huge, I have no problem to stay more than ten squares away from their clusters, and I'm fine with whatever they consider as extreme prejudice if somebody settles near those obvious clusters.  OTOH not all DLord cities belong to those clusters, and that's where their statement gets interesting.

Apparently you wanted to say that some (but not necessarily all) of the 12 squares in distance 5 from a given city can be economically interesting for potential sov, and of course that's even more so the case for the remaining 60+8 squares with a distance below 5.  I'm just starting with sov and need examples to check the plausibility of your or of similar arguments.  So far I learned by trial and error that I like a 30% cow bonus from two level III structures better than the 30% from one level V plus one level I.

A city in distance 10 in the direction of an economically interesting square could claim that both cities are entitled to get it, so they'd better discuss this possibility before the second city settles.  But if the squares in the middle of distance 10 are ordinary squares, without any unique bonus from both POVs, your specific argument for a general 10sq claim does not hold.  

This is not a small buffer zone, it is a huge worst case scenario in the game mechanics for exodus and teleport of bigger cities.  For a new city starting at pop 0 you have weeks or more likely months to claim any economically interesting square in its direction, first come, first served.

   


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2012 at 23:53
As a newbie I thought the 10 square "rule" was so that one had room for more towns in that area if so desired - claiming outlying Sov squares was the last thing on my mind. 
 
 Now that I have been here a little while, I can understand it all a lot better and appreciate it for what it really is, room to lay claim to a plot up to 5 squares out from the city without getting or causing grief to the neighbors. Not a claim on land or resources up to 10 squares out as I originally supposed.

I also see that unless one wants to lay claim to to a particularly strategic or rich outlying square then it does not matter if someone wants to move in a bit closer, especially if they ask.
I have not claimed any Sov squares personally at this time, but I do think the Dwarven Lords document simply states what many people and some Alliances quote as a reasonable "rule" now and I am pleased that they have put it in the forum for open discussion.






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