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Topic ClosedA Short Treatise on the Early History of Illyriad

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geofrey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2014 at 21:34
Surely, with H? doing so much good, no alliance will want to remove them from their power of authority. 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2014 at 21:50
Originally posted by geofrey geofrey wrote:

Surely, with H? doing so much good, no alliance will want to remove them from their power of authority.


Having already disagreed with the topic and its contents I have to say that actual history totally disagrees with that statement since many benevolent people ended up being hated and persecuted ( Socrates, anyone .?. :p  ).

"Doing good" (or trying to) does not mean that "people will like you" ... Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2014 at 22:43
I will very pointedly avoid any analogy involving a religous context as I've no right to think nearly that highly of myself nor my alliance.  But no man will be more hated, reviled, and slandered than he who is good/right in the eyes of them who are not.  Add a little jealousy and political power, and there's your tinderbox.

It was refreshing to see someone taking a moment to remember what Harmless is actually about even at a superficial level, though I do need to point out a couple very important corrections:
  • Harmless always actively refused to fulfill a role as server police, even when others desired it of us.  Never at any point did we seek out and destroy "heretics" but only retaliated against "heretics acting against us or our allies."  Plenty of "evil" thrived so long as it left Harmless, Toothless, DLords, etc. alone.  I believe we extended our direct protection to any training alliance (within a strict definition), but don't recall ever entering a conflict on this factor alone.  In one case (the Consone war) we knew a large force was being gathered against us and already starting to push us around (Consone was particluarly fond of stalling diplomatic resolutions with empty promises or pleasantries while still actively misbehaving) and so we kept some of our alliegances secret as a form of entrapment using a small alliance they were treating even far worse.  The (successful) intention being that they'd come into conflict with us on our terms rather than theirs.  This is the furthest we ever strayed from our policy of non-interference and we were still basically just protecting ourselves from a direct threat.
  • NC are not nor ever have been any kind of extention to Harmless politically, militarily, or even culturally.  Their policies regarding treatment of "heretics" is entirely their own and they grew into a prolific force entirely independently.  We are certainly strong allies now, but have grown into such through mutual respect and cooperation developed over time after coming from completely independent backgrounds.  If you doubt this, just review the alliance history of our two alliances' members.  I believe you'll see very little crossover and probably none up until quite recently.

There is certainly plenty of data in these forums and elsewhere that can establish what actual events took place and how many of the alliances involved actually behaved, including ourselves.  There would be far more if the publication of in-game mail and other communications were allowed here.  But you will have to sift through a lot of opinion profusely offered and later by the same sources presented as representing popular opinion by reason of volume.

Many new players will confuse the loudest voice with the widest-held opinion, but this is only a problem for a thriving game with a steady influx of new players.  If you are a new player, all you really need is to remember one simple principle: perspective is a product of motive.  As for the rest of us, nothing is so telling as the effort my enemies place on (re)shaping that public opinion.  Is actual public opinion changing?  Maybe a little, and certainly more as time passes and one voice dominates the conversation.  But I know what really shifted the balance of power, and that was plain old betrayal, not some great shift toward evil in an alliance was only ever becoming less involved in the game and its political landscape.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2014 at 23:45
When such a large number of players actively take up arms in order to remove your power and influence from the game as a whole, I would take that as a large shift in public opinion.  The balance of power has stayed in pretty much the same hands during my time in Illyriad, but the majority of people with said power appeared to have finally had enough of what they saw and decided to do something about it.  I hardly count that as betrayal, especially since none of your confeds declared war upon you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2014 at 00:33
I would suggest this thread if you wish to learn more about The History of Illyriad.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2014 at 01:29
Originally posted by Elmindra Elmindra wrote:

When such a large number of players actively take up arms in order to remove your power and influence from the game as a whole, I would take that as a large shift in public opinion.  The balance of power has stayed in pretty much the same hands during my time in Illyriad, but the majority of people with said power appeared to have finally had enough of what they saw and decided to do something about it.  I hardly count that as betrayal, especially since none of your confeds declared war upon you.

You want to talk opinion?  Lets go a little deeper.
  • We were secretly confederated with Crows since before the Consone war (and repeatedly declined their aid in that war).  This tie was established while threefootthree was in power and appears to have been subverted as soon as Dittobyte succeeded him.  It's possible Dittobyte felt threatened, but the reasoning for it is flimsy, and it's more likely he just wanted the limelight.  That is the first and greatest betrayal, for the confederation was no weaker than we had with NC, TCol, or DLords, and was kept secret only to keep us "accessible" to future conflicts of reasonable scale.  We didn't ever want them to actually fight for us, yet we would have fought for them.
  • DARK fought on our side in the Consone war and retained close ties though I think the confederation was dissolved post-war, or more likely reduced to a NAP.  They supposedly disagreed with NC's actions, but were not appeased when NC made changes to correct and tried to end the conflict.  By the terms with which we treated them, we deserved at least neutrality from DARK even before the originating NC conflict was resolved.  Those are the betrayals, the deeper details of which remain largely private.  I didn't care to bring them up and I don't care to discuss them in greater detail.
  • Shade has made little attempt to color their actions as anything but a power grab.  They are a military alliance with a moral code quite different from ours, and they're simply following that code to its obvious conclusion of eliminating competitors.  Their placement in Harmless strongholds suggests they've been positioning themselves for this war for a very long time, even though we've been very peaceful, cooperative, and courteous with them.  Right up until the war started The Duke held a neutral position and responded to open dialog on any issues of interest to him.  The reason was obvious - he only had beef with us if he had a strong chance to take us down.
  • Valar, EE, and various others lost previous wars, and some key players even managed to leak clear damning evidence which is now public record that this is a grudge war based not even on previous conflicts, but merely on having lost them.
  • Other major alliances and respected leaders think quite differently and are refusing to get involved even verbally out of a conflict of interest.  It is not my business to name them but I sure would like to.  Regardless, the motives vs actions of non-participants are equally telling, especially when one would expect differently based on existing treaties.
You can preach about public opinion and some lofty crusade all you want, but the motives of most alliances (and especially leading players) are quite transparent when not lumped so sloppily together into a rough sampling of final effect.  But go ahead and preach.  Might makes right vocally just like it does politically.

And it will work exactly the same when history repeats itself.


Edited by HonoredMule - 21 Feb 2014 at 02:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2014 at 02:07
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Bla bla bla...

Of course HM! Your enemies are fueled by hatred and possessed by penis envy. Why else would they be fighting you?

Obviously H? has never ever done anything which would prompt so many to unite against them Ermm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2014 at 02:08
Flawless rebuttal.

I am defeated.
"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2014 at 02:21
I'm well aware that in terms of active participants on this forum, I am essentially preaching to my enemy's choir.  It is for the sake of silent readers and outsiders to the conflict that I speak - for those who actually wish to learn something and have, as of late, found great difficulty doing so amid the noise.

Well now I've done the onerous task, and this is the part where I drop my mic.  Feel free to continue squabbling amongst yourself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2014 at 02:22
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Flawless rebuttal.

I am defeated.

Nope, you did that all by your lonesome self Wink
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