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Topic Closed31Mar13 Military Unit Production Time Adjustments

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DeathDealer89 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 01:47
Originally posted by GM Luna GM Luna wrote:

[QUOTE=DeathDealer89] 
It's a bit hidden in the first post, but the dev blog about the update goes into a lot of detail behind the thought process of the change.


GM Luna

Cool makes way more sense now :D
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 01:55
Originally posted by GM Luna GM Luna wrote:

Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

 Why did the devs decide this route not suggested anywhere as opposed to any of the other ones?

It's a bit hidden in the first post, but the dev blog about the update goes into a lot of detail behind the thought process of the change.


GM Luna

I read it all, and still don't like the way they did it. Probably it is more about "how easy it was to code" than any other consideration.

As many people already pointed at, this makes offensive siege even easier than before. And on the long run cavalry will not keep pace with reconstruction times of defensive units (which will be used for offence). I don't think this is what we need in this game, at all.

Spears are the real winner in this change for defense and swords for offence. 
So I would like to have an option to switch to dwarf or orc.

To me , this change is bigger than you think.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 01:58
Although this superficially seems great for dwarven infantry, you're still limited by swords and chainmail being produced in the same building. No other weapon or armor suffers from that bottleneck. It seems to me that this will allow a player to convert an existing armory stockpile into troops faster, but not necessarily to produce to maximum allowable speed.

Has anybody done the math on this to verify?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 02:17
Originally posted by Albatross Albatross wrote:

Heh, someone shook the sandbox :o)

Got a great laugh out of this one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 02:23
Originally posted by Brandmeister Brandmeister wrote:

Although this superficially seems great for dwarven infantry, you're still limited by swords and chainmail being produced in the same building. No other weapon or armor suffers from that bottleneck. It seems to me that this will allow a player to convert an existing armory stockpile into troops faster, but not necessarily to produce to maximum allowable speed.

Has anybody done the math on this to verify?

Just buy extra equipment off the market.  This is hardly an issue for actual max production speed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 02:23
I was continuing to think about the Infantry weapon furnitures issue, which is even more important now that infantry can be produced faster.
Actually i think there are ways to make this issue less important. I thought i would keep it for me and my alliance... but i also want to give solutions for balance and bring solutions for defending against siege, so...

Some ideas, but im sure the new changes can permit much more:
The collective work: as an orc, you can focus on producing T1 spears. Then you can use your forge and produce swords for your dwarves mates, instead of producing chain for your T2 spears. 
As an orc, you can also have some towns for T1 spears and some towns for T2 infantry, produce the swords for urslelf in the T1 spears cities and the chain in the T2 sword ones (less effective than sharing with dwarves, but it gives you more fighting options, individually).
A dwarf can hardly make a combination T2 Inf/Spear, unless it's T1 spears which just got more interesting. Same combination possible with T2 Inf/T1 ranged, specilising cities weapons prod accordingly. You'd produce less Inf but would have less issues to get the weapons for them. Of course, if your orc/elven mates give you the swords you need... and that you give your overproduced spears to orcs, etc... well it gets very interesting.
Same for Human who could make a Cav/Inf combination and get eventually some swords from orcs/elven mates who build T1 racial units. Actually Elves could also produce saddles for humans, instead of producing leather for temselves...
There are surely many other interesting combinations/cooperations.

Well, all that to say that the fact that some T1 units are getting interesting to produce may permit to balance/facilitate some units producion, notely Infantry, if players are cooperative enough (or through market availability/price lowerings). And then have a bigger and faster rebuildable Infantry pool. 
So i vanish for the moment my problematic about Infantry compared recovering issues, as the current release may permit more weapons availability for them. 

Though it doesnt solve the Cav usefulness issue :p






Edited by opk - 01 Apr 2013 at 02:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 07:40
Actually cavalry doesn't become less useful. While they take longer to produce now, they can still move faster.

For example, if you might be able to produce 100 T1 spears in one day and 100 cavalry in 2 days. However the t1 spears take 2 days to reach a spot on the map and the cavalry only takes 1 day to reach the same spot. Therefore, both types of units take 3 days to reach a spot on the map (to break a siege, defend etc). This shows that the recovery rate of both types of units are roughly the same.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 08:00
Thank you. Maybe speed cav production?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 10:00
complaining about gearing is a thing i dont understand, i havent really made my own gear to use in a LONG time, sure my towns are producing, but when i need some i just buy it off the market instead.


Awesome update, as Orcs we will now make sure we rule the land as we should be.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 11:48
Originally posted by Mayflower Mayflower wrote:

For example, if you might be able to produce 100 T1 spears in one day and 100 cavalry in 2 days. However the t1 spears take 2 days to reach a spot on the map and the cavalry only takes 1 day to reach the same spot. Therefore, both types of units take 3 days to reach a spot on the map (to break a siege, defend etc). This shows that the recovery rate of both types of units are roughly the same.

About what is bold, you actually produce 4.3 T1 orc spear while you produce 1 T2 human cav in the mean time (and i dont speak even about advantage on sov for units production given to spears, due to almost inexistant weapons demands... cause then it would be around 9 T1 orc spear for 1 knight, if you compare the overall prod of spear based maxed orc and a cav based maxed human). And as said already T1 orc spears are even better than T2 overall, in terms of power given per time. And they cost almost nothing compared to the T2 version. 

You talk about moving speed, and T1 are indeed faster than T2, and cav are still the very fastest units. But during a war, the speed of your def units doesnt matter so much: when you set a siege, you have all your time and can coordinate the launching times of the various def armies, for them to land on the said spot at the said time, so that movement speed for def units isnt an issue. 
Also, whatever your speed is, if you attack a siege camp, you can anticipate your loss by starting to build few units during the travel, so that your recovery doesnt suffer of your speed.
So using the moving speed factor as to compare the recovery times isn't really relevant. 

Cav are still very fast and can reach some squares before others do. But during a war, they will then mostly be used to break sieges (generally on mountains/forests) due to that fact... but as def units recovers even faster than before, when you do so you are more than ever making a non efficient move as def units will recover way faster than you. So when you do so, you are wasting your knights against the defense, it's a desperate default move. 

As i already said, i think it's logical for cavalry to be less and less efficient on mountains/forests, but if you deeply think about it you wont really often be able to use the power of your knights in good conditions during a war (meaning on plains/small hills). You can't use Cav against sailly forths as noone use this, you can't inflict damage to a city with direct cav attack. Cavalry permit to threaten the plains so that people will avoid to defend on those, but you will rarely use your cav on plains during a war. 
Any other type of units are able to play their best game by going on best terrains during a war (even Inf, if your alliance is territorial), but not Cav.
For me that was already a subject before this release, but now the question of cavs usefulness is more stressed out. 
When you are a regional alliance, if you have good dwarves building infantry, you dont need to have cavalry units. Well, actually you need them to threaten the plains as i already said, but then, for your alliance to be efficient, you should never use them and let the Infantry do the work. They would only be used as unefficient and desperate move, only if your infantry fails. 
As with such release, alliances are encouraged to be territorial furthur, this is what we certainly will see. So in a regional alliance, a human building cavalry should get bored of not using his cav, or only in bad conditions. He can build Ranged/Inf/spears too of course, but will be less efficient compared to other races. 
That's why something could be done for cavalry to get a new ground of usefulnes, or to encourage battles on plain to happen a bit more often during future wars... but i dont have any idea about how to do this. 

But i think we should see how it will really work for cav, and maybe do something about it in a next release if humans complain too much ^^'


Edited by opk - 01 Apr 2013 at 12:03
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