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Sloter 
Forum Warrior
Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 304
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 Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 22:58 |
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I agree that speed is most important, to compensate all those spears that will be used in deff in future.Considering bonuses that bows receive on mountains compared to cav penalties i think sentinels are good replacement for cavalry attacking siege camps on mountain which will probably in future have atleast 50% spear units which was not the case before.Even used for attacking sieges in forests they are more likely to get better results then cavalry considering that defender would use mostly spear for deff in forest.
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opk
Greenhorn
Joined: 23 Mar 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 60
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Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 22:53 |
You calculated it differently Sloter, but the result is the same. And shown like that, you see better that sentinels give even a little more power per training time, though im personnally thinking, seeing the very little bonus, that it's not the main argument to build sentinels instead of trueshots. Speed and mostly weapon demands being the main arguments.
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Old Penitent Knight
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opk
Greenhorn
Joined: 23 Mar 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 60
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Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 22:43 |
 Kumomoto wrote:
Actually that what Opk's table shows is that this only true for ongoing wartime production, not standing armies. Quite the opposite for building your standing armies.
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Well actually, not in the case of sentinels and trueshots. When you look at the table, you see that there is no significative difference of power given per gold unkeep between sentinels and trueshots. That means that with the same gold production pool, you will have as many power with sentinels than with trueshots, for All stats. And now, power given per time for sentinels equals the one for trueshots. So you can max out your power in as many time with sentinels than with trueshots and end up with the same overall power.
This is not the exact same story for orcs spears though, where maxed out army of T1 is less good in attack and cav def than T2, but better for the rest... so for them, it defavors the standing army, indeed, for cav def, and a bit for attack. Though, when you talk about ongoing wartime, T1 orc spears are amazing when you look how much more power you produce overtime for all stats, compared with old T2 orc spear unit. For some stat you produce twice more power/time than previously!! and of course they are cheaper and faster. (see table). Edit: actually, T1 orc spear being cheaper than T2 in weapons is a say to balance: they ask much more beers and spears over time than T2 (see table), but you can sell leather/livestock and chain to compensate that fact and create the gold needed to buy more beers and spears.
Edited by opk - 01 Apr 2013 at 23:00
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Old Penitent Knight
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Sloter
Forum Warrior
Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 304
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Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 22:35 |
I have probably calculated things diferently then opk since i used train times from lvl 20 barracks, i just compared stats of 10 sentinels trained within 62,5 min to 6,25 trueshots trained within same time time of 62.5 min.I dont know why i chosen those times, maybe because it was easier to calculate on paper with help of cell phone calculator.Anyway it looks to me that it pays of to train sentinels even in peace time, especialy since they would get 10-15% bonus from comm with divisional deff upgrade not to mention speed and profit made on cows/leather armour.I am not that good with math so maybe i have miscalculated.I am not sure about gold, i think it is 20/19 or so ratio on favor of trueshots being cheaper but i dont think that should stop anyone from making sentinels.
10 sentinels attack 200 spear deff 230 bow deff 240 sword deff 230 cav deff 160 6,25 trueshots attack 200 spear deff 225 bow deff 225 sword deff 212.5 cav deff 156.25
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Kumomoto
Postmaster General
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2224
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Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 21:58 |
Sloter wrote:
Like opk said they sentinels are not equivalent to truehots they are more effectiv then trushots now, in same given production time sentinel give better deff stats then trueshots, and keep same off stats.When commander that gives deff divisonal bonuse is used on sentinel army while they are defending that advantage of sentinels over trushots in increased even more.They are also cheaper to make and they are faster which makes them good for attacks especily considering that in future there will be more spear units used to protect siege camps then there was before and those have low deff against attacking bows. |
Actually that what Opk's table shows is that this only true for ongoing wartime production, not standing armies. Quite the opposite for building your standing armies.
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opk
Greenhorn
Joined: 23 Mar 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 60
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Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 21:15 |
Did the same for Orcs spears. I let you judge by yourself:
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train time |
gold unkeep |
Move speed |
carrying cap |
attck |
Sp def |
Sw def |
Bow def |
Cav def |
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T1 Spear |
370 |
1 |
8 |
25 |
9 |
12 |
12 |
6 |
13 |
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old T2 Spear |
1200 |
2 |
6 |
18 |
19 |
18 |
18 |
11 |
33 |
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new T2 Spear |
890 |
2 |
6 |
18 |
19 |
18 |
18 |
11 |
33 |
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attck |
Sp def |
Sw def |
Bow def |
Cav def |
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| Power/time |
T1 Spear |
0,024 |
0,032 |
0,032 |
0,016 |
0,035 |
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old T2 Spear |
0,016 |
0,015 |
0,015 |
0,009 |
0,028 |
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new T2 Spear |
0,021 |
0,020 |
0,020 |
0,012 |
0,037 |
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| Power/gold |
T1 Spear |
9,0 |
12,0 |
12,0 |
6,0 |
13,0 |
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old T2 Spear |
9,5 |
9,0 |
9,0 |
5,5 |
16,5 |
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new T2 Spear |
9,5 |
9,0 |
9,0 |
5,5 |
16,5 |
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Beer |
spear |
leather |
chain |
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| Wp demand |
T1 Spear |
1 |
1 |
0 |
0 |
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old T2 Spear |
1 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
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new T2 Spear |
1 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
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| dmnd/time |
T1 Spear |
0,00270 |
0,00270 |
0,00000 |
0,00000 |
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old T2 Spear |
0,00083 |
0,00167 |
0,00083 |
0,00083 |
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new T2 Spear |
0,00112 |
0,00225 |
0,00112 |
0,00112 |
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Old Penitent Knight
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Arakamis
Greenhorn
Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Location: Waterdeep
Status: Offline
Points: 97
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Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 21:05 |
Sloter wrote:
Like opk said they sentinels are not equivalent to truehots they are more effectiv then trushots now, in same given production time sentinel give better deff stats then trueshots, and keep same off stats.When commander that gives deff divisonal bonuse is used on sentinel army while they are defending that advantage of sentinels over trushots in increased even more.They are also cheaper to make and they are faster which makes them good for attacks especily considering that in future there will be more spear units used to protect siege camps then there was before and those have low deff against attacking bows. |
That is, imo, the idea behind this update, to promote usage of different types of troops.
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Sloter
Forum Warrior
Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 304
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Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 20:48 |
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Like opk said they sentinels are not equivalent to truehots they are more effectiv then trushots now, in same given production time sentinel give better deff stats then trueshots, and keep same off stats.When commander that gives deff divisonal bonuse is used on sentinel army while they are defending that advantage of sentinels over trushots in increased even more.They are also cheaper to make and they are faster which makes them good for attacks especily considering that in future there will be more spear units used to protect siege camps then there was before and those have low deff against attacking bows.
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Arakamis
Greenhorn
Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Location: Waterdeep
Status: Offline
Points: 97
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Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 20:47 |
opk wrote:
Arakamis wrote:
It doesn't favor a specific race, it does favor infantry units..
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if you look well, Inf have different build times, depending on race. About Inf, Orcs are justly favored cause their Inf has lower training time. I wonder why. |
yea figured that not yet checked actually. Only calculated for Elves and
Dwarves. Playing as a dwarf has just become much more interesting
that's for sure.
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opk
Greenhorn
Joined: 23 Mar 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 60
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Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 20:44 |
Garth wrote:
Trueshots attack is 32, not 30. |
Thanks Garth, bad manual copy, edited.
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Old Penitent Knight
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31Mar13 Military Unit Production Time Adjustments