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22JUL24 - Military Unit Speed Increases
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BrianN View Drop Down
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Points: 134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2024 at 22:50
OK, so my thoughts on this:
"

  • To begin to address the power gap between cavalry and unmounted units.

"
So thats what concerns me...everyone knows the meta is unbalanced for cavalry, but you are planning to do more than this? I always say that "availability is the best ability" and this to me was cav's biggest advantage, so if you are nerfing that best ability by 20+% what more are you going after?
As zoon said, this effectively kills the last shot of siegeing in PvP, as the attackers needed a massive numbers advantage and will now need even more.
I also wonder if you guys took into effect the bigger than 20% boost this gives them when you include riding horses.
Paradoxically, long distance warfare is made harder by this update, not easier.

With a lack of underlying source notes with this update, it makes me wonder if it was really thought out properly. Where's a DPH table? Where's a UpDPh table? It makes it seem like these numbers were simply pulled out of thin air and not carefully researched. I could come up with these this weekend if you are interested in them, but I wonder what your rationale for the values was.

IMO, the greatest problem with Cav wasnt the move speed, it was the crazy terrain boost on plains. This made the tourney even more ridiculous when the squares are on plains.

Limiting future updates to the imput of only 5 people, 3 whom dont play at all, is not great.
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Smopecakes View Drop Down
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Points: 335 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Smopecakes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2024 at 00:11
There was an extensive and finely detailed discussion about some of the basics in the "Infantry" suggestion thread that likely made up the core player input, along with the general 'the map is too big' concern

My sense is that the speeds considered were almost all "is an increase of one or two more plausible?". The percentage results from the base speed and whether it was one or two. Only Sentinels gained 3 points which I support as it was kind of awkward with 9 speed Axemen following around fetching Sentinel elfs barely getting away at 10 speed

I'd say riding horses are too expensive to affect the dynamic. With foot units largely 8-11 speed for a 9.5 average and cav 11-17 for a 14 speed average there remains a fulsome difference. The effective area of a cav cluster is 2x larger than foot and the linear allied reinforcement distance 50% more
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HATH View Drop Down
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Points: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote HATH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2024 at 03:31
what about the Scrawny Wolf, surely they deserve a boost!
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stylesie View Drop Down
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Points: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stylesie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2024 at 05:24
I would have loved to see some diplos, scouts get a speed boost.
Or for Thieves speed and carrying capacity to be nerfed.

Hard for a light footed, Ranger to catch up to a heavily laden thief.
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BrianN View Drop Down
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Points: 134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2024 at 10:20
Originally posted by Smopecakes Smopecakes wrote:

There was an extensive and finely detailed discussion about some of the basics in the "Infantry" suggestion thread that likely made up the core player input, along with the general 'the map is too big' concern

What thread?  I never saw it.
And sentinels on foot are now faster than knights?  Silly
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Thirion View Drop Down
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Originally posted by BrianN BrianN wrote:

Originally posted by Smopecakes Smopecakes wrote:

There was an extensive and finely detailed discussion about some of the basics in the "Infantry" suggestion thread that likely made up the core player input, along with the general 'the map is too big' concern

What thread?  I never saw it.
And sentinels on foot are now faster than knights?  Silly



On page 3 i made the suggestion to a flat buff to movement speed for all units. Which is essentially what this update does - with a few tweaks and improvements that i personally like.

Let me quote Bazoon there:

Originally posted by bzn bzn wrote:

i agree with thirion post about adding flat movespeed buff to all units to speed up the game and level the difference between cav is a good solution, also minor reduction in cav attack. i think other units are in a good position and dont need stat adjustments, just cav nerf and movespeed changes will make players be more creative and do good for inf


This is not to call out Bazoon - as i think the concerns he posted above are valid. But at that time we did not consider them.
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BrianN View Drop Down
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Points: 134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2024 at 14:39
Oh, yippey!!  Aug 2023!!  Year old topic!
Not to mention that Sentinels' top speed now is 30% faster than knights'.  Build time 2.13x faster, for better than 90% the defensive value.
Devs better be darn sure they look at the values before their next tweak...it appears they didnt do so for this one, just threw out a blanket 20-30% buff.  Again, I agree with the general goal of this update, but Im not seeing any indication of an actual mathematical strategy.
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Thirion View Drop Down
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Originally posted by BrianN BrianN wrote:

Devs better be darn sure they look at the values before their next tweak...it appears they didnt do so for this one, just threw out a blanket 20-30% buff.


Inf gets +1 movement speed, Spears and Bows get +2.

With 3 exceptions: Sents, Wardancers and Axemen. More speed for Sents and Wardancers probably because of the race. Axmen probably to buff dwarf infantry a bit without making it too broken.

Movement speed does impact the damage you can do - but it depends a lot on the setup and distance - thus it is in my opinon hard to compare it.


Edited by Thirion - 24 Jul 2024 at 15:05
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bzn View Drop Down
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Points: 309 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bzn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2024 at 23:09
I dont agree with what I said previously as now I have more experience and a better understanding of the dynamic of sieging and defending. other units being faster is not good. 

I think previous movement speeds with either a reduction of cav attack or a reduction of the negative terrain effect of plains on other units would have been a better change to balance out cav


Edited by bzn - 24 Jul 2024 at 23:11
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King Sigerius View Drop Down
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Points: 256 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Sigerius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2024 at 23:19
100% I loved how big and still crowded the map was when I joined. The slow pace, the even slower seiges. Fighting should have a reward imo. Capping a town gives you EVERYTHING in that town. And a cav on plains nerf would have been my go to.
Prioritize regional conflicts. And turn on hub blockading.


Edited by King Sigerius - 24 Jul 2024 at 23:20
KS
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