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22JUL24 - Military Unit Speed Increases

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Thirion View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thirion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2024 at 07:00
Originally posted by Sif Sif wrote:

Bows are the best unit that's why you are building them Thirion.

I am using Sentinels because they are the second best unit for tournaments after Cav from all races. I tried to make non-Cav work and that is in my opinion one of the few options. It is still weaker compared to Cav though.

Originally posted by Sif Sif wrote:


Bows can attack any defender with extremely good ratio

This is just wrong. The math and data does not support your statement.


As you can see my ratio is around 1. While the ratio of Cav players is usually around 3 or even higher. Considering Cav has double the upkeep still means that Cav players are getting (way) better ratios.

Lets look at a simplified (no commander skills) combat:

Base attack of Knights: 65
Base attack of Sentinel: 20

On plains for Knights: 84.5
On plains for Sentinel: 20

Defensive value for Kobolds:
On plains against Knights: 13
On plains against Sentinel: 6

Thus we get the following ratio:
Knight vs Kobold on plains: 84.5/13 = 6.5
Sentinel vs Kobold on plains: 20/6=3.33

Considering Knights have double the upkeep we get a 6.5 ratio vs a 6.66 ratio for Sentinels.

Conclusion: On plains Knights get a similar ratio against their counter unit Kobold then Sentinels get against the unit they are countering!

On plains Knights get a similar ratio in their worst case compared to Sentinels best case!


Edited by Thirion - 01 Aug 2024 at 07:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beleg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2024 at 07:11
Genghis Khan's Golden Horde, The Huns under Attila, possibly also Turkmen and Scythians: Cavalry Archers were the tank divisions of their day, able to perform a precursor to Blitzkrieg and guerrilla. So fast archers definitely make sense, but much more so if horses are included in building them and/or when equipping them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sif Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2024 at 07:24
Beleg, I I did not say this about the in battlefield speed, but about long travel distance to get to the batlefield
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thirion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2024 at 07:32
Originally posted by Sif Sif wrote:

Bows can attack any defender with extremely good ratio

Another example (now the best case for Cav and the worst case for Sentinels).

Lets look at a simplified (no commander skills) combat:

Base attack of Knights: 65
Base attack of Sentinel: 20

On plains for Knights: 84.5
On plains for Sentinel: 20

Defensive value for Sentinels:
On plains against Knights: 16
On plains against Sentinel: 24

Thus we get the following ratio:
Knight vs Sentinel on plains: 84.5/16 = 5.3
Sentinel vs Sentinel on plains: 20/24= 0.83

Considering Knights have double the upkeep we get a 5.3 ratio vs a 1.66 ratio for Sentinels.

Conclusion: Knights against Sentinels on plains get a 3.3 (!) times better ratio compared to Sentinels with the same upkeep!

Attacking Knights kill 2.65 times the upkeep of defending Sentinels!
Attacking Knights kill 1.625 times the upkeep of defending Kobolds!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sif Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2024 at 07:32
Thirion I agree with your math's, not with the convulsion, but I will not get to details tho. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smopecakes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2024 at 03:46
I have experienced Sentinels as flex units whose stats on either offence or defence alone don't give you the one true statistic on them

It seems like there are a few baseline characterizations that would need to be made to make a comparison. I tend to like testing attack vs 1/3rd Kobolds, 1/3 Sents, and 1/3 heavy spears. It may be that Kobolds are more dominant but heavy spears are pretty similar as far as bows and cav go

For defence I think you can expect to be defending 50% cav, 30% inf and 20% bows

Additionally there are costs including price and time to rebuild. This could be a big variable which I don't know what it should be. imo the prime cost effect is upkeep ratio as this determines who holds more combat power in the initial battles of a war and can still dominate costs depending on a war's op rate. Then rebuild rate which would determine who can overcome the other by training speed. Then unit upfront cost. If you can achieve a high rate of operation turnover this can be a lot more important and drain the treasury of an opponent

I might value the costs as 60% upkeep ratio, 30% rebuild rate and 10% upfront unit costs but would be particularly interested in other takes on that. I'd say my experience in war was probably a beefy op every 2-3 months turning over committed troops as the long term average but this may be unusual. Notably using this would mean we would effectively be using the same turnover as regular tournament troops
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2024 at 09:26
Thirion please. . . 

If Sentinels were so poor in your estimation, why do you mass produce them in the millions?

you say one thing but do the opposite. 

Sentinels are an excellent unit. cheap to build, low maintainance, good def stats and good atk stats. they perform their duties well in every terrain. they are the stalwart of the elven army.

they can be produced like kobolds and now have the marching speed of cavalry. 

We all know how Orc units fare against elves in battles and im just despairing at the thought of how many casualties im going to suffer when attacking elf strongholds in the future. 

i got a battle report today. . . 

Kleio [ASCN] army comprised of 120 swiftsteeds killed 10,000 of my orc units. does this not tell you that the game mechanic is broken.

Orcs need buffs, quickly. i dont want to spend months/years building armies just to watch them be slaughtered by excellent elf bows, super human cavs and terrific dwarven infantry.

the power of the orcs was in its numbers but thats not enough. we need better units/more of them to counter the relentless spamming of elite divisions, which imo has broken the game. 

#buffsfororcs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thirion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2024 at 09:52
Originally posted by Deim Deim wrote:

Thirion please. . .
If Sentinels were so poor in your estimation, why do you mass produce them in the millions?

you say one thing but do the opposite.

I stated that already: My goal was and is to make non-Cav work. In my opinion it worked - Sentinel is used a lot more over the last few years.

If you prefer me mass-producing millions of Cav i can do that too.

In addition to that i never stated that Sentinels are poor. I stated that Sentinels are good (and balanced) units multiple times already. 

The point i was trying to make is that Knights/Cav are a lot stronger in their main use cases in comparison to Sentinels.

Originally posted by Deim Deim wrote:

Sentinels are an excellent unit. cheap to build, low maintainance, good def stats and good atk stats. they perform their duties well in every terrain. they are the stalwart of the elven army.

I agree and i never said anything against that. In my opinion they are balanced because they have a hard-counter in defense (Cav) and a soft-counter in offense (Bows).

Originally posted by Deim Deim wrote:

We all know how Orc units fare against elves in battles and im just despairing at the thought of how many casualties im going to suffer when attacking elf strongholds in the future.

On plains Cav is still scarier then Bows against sieges. That is the point i was trying to show with my math.

Originally posted by Deim Deim wrote:

Kleio [ASCN] army comprised of 120 swiftsteeds killed 10,000 of my orc units. does this not tell you that the game mechanic is broken.

Cav is broken. Especially Elite Cav. Yes. That is the point i am trying to make though?

People here argue that Cav needs a buff now - because other units got buffed. My argument is that they do not need a buff - Cav is still really powerful.

Originally posted by Deim Deim wrote:

Orcs need buffs, quickly. i dont want to spend months/years building armies just to watch them be slaughtered by excellent elf bows, super human cavs and terrific dwarven infantry.

the power of the orcs was in its numbers but thats not enough. we need better units/more of them to counter the relentless spamming of elite divisions, which imo has broken the game.

I disagree. Orcs are by far the best warfare race for siege setups. That is one reason why i remade Thirion to TrollHunter. In my opinion Orcs are in a good spot currently.

I razed multiple Iron/RE cities on desert plains (with the city being on a Mountain) in the last few months. And also forced Exos. They majority of those troops were Orc (Kobolds). Bows/Sentinels on the other hand are rather weak in warfare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smopecakes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2024 at 18:30
Let's say an Orc has 2/3rds kobolds dedicated to defence, mostly for sieges. An Elf has 2/3rds sents but they can be used freely on attack and defence. A Human has 2/3rds cav for attack

For plains the Orc has an average def of 10.1 per upkeep vs my previous mix of attackers. On a 2 month cycle the weapons and upkeep cost with two upkeep buildings is 1000g. The kobolds retrain 180 def on plains vs the mix per hour

The Human has an average atk of 21 per upkeep vs 10.6 def vs cav per upkeep of the 1/3rds kobold/sents/t2 spears mix. Ratio of 2. Costs 1700g per one upkeep with weapons over 2 months. Retrains 381 atk per hour on plains

The Elf has both. You can't credit full value for attack and defence because you're using your units twice then. Maybe since on average you have 50% of the units trained we'll say the Elf is plains siege stacks like the Orc but also has a 50% attack value. You can only use the unit once but the availability of the unit for attack as well has to have a significant value. 10 def per upkeep vs attacker mix. Costs 1,100g per two month cycle per upkeep. Retrains 187 def per hour vs the attacker mix on plains

Well, unexpectedly this is already the same as the kobold for 10% more cost. 10 attack per upkeep vs 11 def vs bows per upkeep for the defensive mix for a .9 ratio. So their attack value is 50% of 50% with half the ratio of the knights. This gives me a "knight value" of 425g (1700g x .25) deducted from their cost per defence for a 675g cost per upkeep for def/atk value. Attack retrains at 96 atk per hour relative to the knights with 2x the ratio

Much better cost and better retraining value vs the kobold if you credit the 50% attack value, and essentially equal on defence grounds on plains if you credit the 50% cav, 30% inf, 20% bow attackers mix. Kobolds are a lot more valuable for def in forest though the sents can attack in forest. I suspect the "one true number" would give sents a reasonable edge across terrains
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smopecakes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2024 at 18:40
I should add, adjusting the knights upkeep/weapons cost for a 2x upkeep ratio gives me 1300g per upkeep over 2 months vs 1000g for kobolds defending on plains and 1100g for sents. I think this can change pretty wildly depending on op rate
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