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GM Stormcrow 
Moderator Group
GM
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Location: Illyria
Status: Offline
Points: 3820
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 Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 15:09 |
 Nokigon wrote:
(snip)
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+100 and eleventy illypoints to Nokigon, by default
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Jalont
New Poster
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 6
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 16:31 |
Quackers wrote:
DeathDealer89 wrote:
The steep tax is ridiculous. It simply took away the job of trader from us. Now there is no way to buy/sell on the market and make a profit like there was. Plus changing your price and being flexible eliminates any profit margin that the tax may have left over. The market is much more of a pain in the butt compared to what it was. This update completely removes the so called 'trader' job which they intended to add. Further if this tax is meant to move things to the hubs, the hub taxes are still to high. 1% for high standings may be acceptable but 5% is still to high.
Unless these taxes go to some aspect of the game that we haven't seen yet it should be greatly reduced otherwise trade and traders will flounder not flourish. |
May I ask how the tax is to high. If I were to sell 10k cows for 900 gold in the faction hub, I might get taxed what 450,000 gold? I'd get 9,000,000 gold. That is a 8,550,000 gold profit. How is that to high? It is a gold sink, get used to it.
If you are getting money from the deal you are paying a tax. You do not like the tax then charge the person for the tax? I say this opens up trade in a whole new way.
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Playing a trader is more than selling off excess goods. You have to have a steady supply, and that involves constantly buying low and selling high. Oftentimes, that includes buying those 1000 beer for 103 per unit, then selling another 1000 beer for 105 per unit. There's also the game within the game, which is attempting to control the markets. Market prices do not spring forth naturally. They are manipulated by a select dedicated few. This was a fun way minigame to play with small rivalries forming. All of this is completely impossible now.
I understand the need to have a gold sink. I really do, and I think that having a tax is a good thing, but when connected with all the other changes, it totally seems to eliminate the trader role. I just came back to the game so I haven't been able to actually implement trade specialization, so perhaps I don't have enough data, but by studying what will be needed and making some assumptions, a player will have to have several cities dedicated to simply trading, while before two cities with mild specialization was enough.
| The new tax forces you to offer and accept trades that make sense, assuming the point is not to lose gold on a trade, preferably gaining gold. Unless you have billions to spare for funding your buying/selling habit, it will force you to act like a trader. In that way it is not a gold sink but quite the opposite as it forces the trader to create added value when making trades.
As I understand it, this system addresses the major gripe everyone had with the trade scoring system, the fact that it was an easy system to game and thus became meaningless: * The trading scores are now based on what you sell = on the goods you provide to the market. * Providing goods to the market, either through accepting or posting trade offers, is being taxed at 1-7.5% |
The tax will not change people manipulating the trade score. Large players that wish to artificially drive their score up will have no problem paying that extra 7.5 tax. In some ways, I think it's even easier to artificially drive up the score. Sell 1 piece of wood for 10 million gold, have someone in your alliance buy it, return the favor, and you now have two people with 10 million trade points.
Edited by Jalont - 12 Aug 2012 at 16:41
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 17:30 |
Salararius wrote:
We just went from a one variable market (time) to a two variable market (time and region). The opportunity for profit just increased orders of magnitude for traders. A fragmented market is where traders thrive and a global market takes out a lot of their profit opportunity. The traders world just got magnitudes more interesting. You can shift your trader around exploring prices for many items at many different trading markets. Nobody not focused on trading can afford the time to "learn the markets" so a focused traders advantage increases. A single city can pay huge dividends without needing to field an army to protect resources. Learning the "lay of the [trade] land" so to speak will be valuable if the Illy pop remains above a critical mass. I do not see how anyone can call themselves a "trader" and not see the profit potential in this. All this whining about the "tax" ignores just how much opportunity this presents.
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Your comment ignores the point of how goods get to be on the market in the first place. True, not everyone wants to be a trader. Some people just want to sell their goods. However, without people who just want to sell goods they produce or gather, traders would have nothing to do in the first place. So it seems like potential traders might be very interested in the people "whining" about the tax if in fact those were the people who were making it possible to be a trader in the first place by creating and posting goods for sale.
Your comment also ignores points made about the relatively low margin in market-making trades.
I am not sure why it is important for you to dismiss others as whiners; it seems as though you could make your point about opportunities available for trade without denigrating others or resorting to what are essentially ad hominem arguments.
Edited by Rill - 12 Aug 2012 at 17:33
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Nokigon
Postmaster General
Player Council - Historian
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1452
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 17:47 |
GM Stormcrow wrote:
Nokigon wrote:
(snip)
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+100 and eleventy illypoints to Nokigon, by default |
I get lots of Illy points for preaching sedition? o.O
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Ander
Postmaster General
Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1269
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 18:51 |
Noki shows us the light. Rill, if you have any black market offers, please message me! 
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Beecks
Wordsmith
Joined: 03 Apr 2012
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 194
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 19:12 |
Nokigon wrote:
GM Stormcrow wrote:
Nokigon wrote:
(snip)
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+100 and eleventy illypoints to Nokigon, by default |
I get lots of Illy points for preaching sedition? o.O |
This is the same King who, to celebrate the second year of his reign (also know as the 'cotton jubilee'), held a tournament that led to the death of 21 million of his subjects. Clearly this man is not interested in good governance.
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Salararius
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
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Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 03:27 |
Rill wrote:
Your comment ignores the point of how goods get to be on the market in the first place. True, not everyone wants to be a trader. Some people just want to sell their goods. However, without people who just want to sell goods they produce or gather, traders would have nothing to do in the first place. So it seems like potential traders might be very interested in the people "whining" about the tax if in fact those were the people who were making it possible to be a trader in the first place by creating and posting goods for sale. |
Sorry 
The complaints I read about the tax were from the players portraying themselves as traders. I may have missed the people trying to trade with the hubs who were upset too.
We disagree. Personally, I see a lot in this update that specifically benefits traders. I see the volume an individual trader can handle skyrocketing. I see restrictions to regional market information. I see higher barriers to market participation and thus limited competition. I see higher trade barriers overall (taxing system) but much lower barriers for trades with hub traders (pushing business to the traders). I see increased security for trader goods. Yes, I see a cost for traders who offer trades at prices above what the market will bear. If your going to be a trader, don't misjudge the market with all the other advantages you'll have? Overall, I judge the balance to be on the side of the traders by a wide margin. As such, I see complaints as disingenuous. I am sorry if that upsets anyone, it's not my goal.
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 03:56 |
disingenuous:
Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
I'm not seeing it. And I think it's unfortunate that you dismiss disagreement, whether based on facts or different perceptions of economic theory, without engaging them constructively.
Edited by Rill - 13 Aug 2012 at 03:56
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Salararius
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
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Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 04:20 |
Rill wrote:
disingenuous:
Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
I'm not seeing it. And I think it's unfortunate that you dismiss disagreement, whether based on facts or different perceptions of economic theory, without engaging them constructively.
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<shrug> I knew that 
I believe there are constructive facts in my posts. You're choosing to focus on my feelings which really account for one mild word in each post (so mild in the last case that you felt that I didn't even know the meaning of the word I used and in the case of the first post not the first time that words been used here). Again, I'm sorry if my feelings upset you. At no point have I attempted to single you out or targeted your opinion. I will subsequently try to leave out all subjective opinions.
Maybe you can return more constructive input for the community. What are the "market makers" in Illy doing? I see open market spreads of 7-100%+ in every market. If the market makers are providing liquidity, it certainly isn't at a low margin. If they are operating at low margins, then they are providing no liquidity. What don't I understand? Why should the Illy community want market makers (and thus remove the tax). What do the Illy market makers do for the community?
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 05:01 |
I am not myself a market maker, but in the old trade system I frequently saw players who bought basic resources low and resold high, and I know of players who did similar things with advanced resources. Those players ensure that when someone wants to buy (or sell) something, there is a supply available. I don't have enough experience of the new markets to know how well it is working now.
The market spreads reflect transaction costs such as caravan travel times and now the penalty for repricing orders. I would expect to see it decrease as people get more experience in the markets. It will probably widen again when trade visibility is introduced.
I don't think you have been listening to what I have said. I have not argued for removing the tax. I think the tax is just fine. I have argued for removing the tax for orders that are not sold, essentially the tax on repricing orders.
I have not yet heard a logical reason that taxing orders that are canceled and repriced benefits the market.
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11AUG12 - MAJOR RELEASE (Trade)
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