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Salararius 
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
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 Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 03:27 |
 Rill wrote:
Your comment ignores the point of how goods get to be on the market in the first place. True, not everyone wants to be a trader. Some people just want to sell their goods. However, without people who just want to sell goods they produce or gather, traders would have nothing to do in the first place. So it seems like potential traders might be very interested in the people "whining" about the tax if in fact those were the people who were making it possible to be a trader in the first place by creating and posting goods for sale. |
Sorry 
The complaints I read about the tax were from the players portraying themselves as traders. I may have missed the people trying to trade with the hubs who were upset too.
We disagree. Personally, I see a lot in this update that specifically benefits traders. I see the volume an individual trader can handle skyrocketing. I see restrictions to regional market information. I see higher barriers to market participation and thus limited competition. I see higher trade barriers overall (taxing system) but much lower barriers for trades with hub traders (pushing business to the traders). I see increased security for trader goods. Yes, I see a cost for traders who offer trades at prices above what the market will bear. If your going to be a trader, don't misjudge the market with all the other advantages you'll have? Overall, I judge the balance to be on the side of the traders by a wide margin. As such, I see complaints as disingenuous. I am sorry if that upsets anyone, it's not my goal.
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Beecks
Wordsmith
Joined: 03 Apr 2012
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 194
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 19:12 |
Nokigon wrote:
GM Stormcrow wrote:
Nokigon wrote:
(snip)
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+100 and eleventy illypoints to Nokigon, by default |
I get lots of Illy points for preaching sedition? o.O |
This is the same King who, to celebrate the second year of his reign (also know as the 'cotton jubilee'), held a tournament that led to the death of 21 million of his subjects. Clearly this man is not interested in good governance.
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Ander
Postmaster General
Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1269
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 18:51 |
Noki shows us the light. Rill, if you have any black market offers, please message me! 
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Nokigon
Postmaster General
Player Council - Historian
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1452
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 17:47 |
GM Stormcrow wrote:
Nokigon wrote:
(snip)
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+100 and eleventy illypoints to Nokigon, by default |
I get lots of Illy points for preaching sedition? o.O
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 17:30 |
Salararius wrote:
We just went from a one variable market (time) to a two variable market (time and region). The opportunity for profit just increased orders of magnitude for traders. A fragmented market is where traders thrive and a global market takes out a lot of their profit opportunity. The traders world just got magnitudes more interesting. You can shift your trader around exploring prices for many items at many different trading markets. Nobody not focused on trading can afford the time to "learn the markets" so a focused traders advantage increases. A single city can pay huge dividends without needing to field an army to protect resources. Learning the "lay of the [trade] land" so to speak will be valuable if the Illy pop remains above a critical mass. I do not see how anyone can call themselves a "trader" and not see the profit potential in this. All this whining about the "tax" ignores just how much opportunity this presents.
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Your comment ignores the point of how goods get to be on the market in the first place. True, not everyone wants to be a trader. Some people just want to sell their goods. However, without people who just want to sell goods they produce or gather, traders would have nothing to do in the first place. So it seems like potential traders might be very interested in the people "whining" about the tax if in fact those were the people who were making it possible to be a trader in the first place by creating and posting goods for sale.
Your comment also ignores points made about the relatively low margin in market-making trades.
I am not sure why it is important for you to dismiss others as whiners; it seems as though you could make your point about opportunities available for trade without denigrating others or resorting to what are essentially ad hominem arguments.
Edited by Rill - 12 Aug 2012 at 17:33
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Jalont
New Poster
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 6
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 16:31 |
Quackers wrote:
DeathDealer89 wrote:
The steep tax is ridiculous. It simply took away the job of trader from us. Now there is no way to buy/sell on the market and make a profit like there was. Plus changing your price and being flexible eliminates any profit margin that the tax may have left over. The market is much more of a pain in the butt compared to what it was. This update completely removes the so called 'trader' job which they intended to add. Further if this tax is meant to move things to the hubs, the hub taxes are still to high. 1% for high standings may be acceptable but 5% is still to high.
Unless these taxes go to some aspect of the game that we haven't seen yet it should be greatly reduced otherwise trade and traders will flounder not flourish. |
May I ask how the tax is to high. If I were to sell 10k cows for 900 gold in the faction hub, I might get taxed what 450,000 gold? I'd get 9,000,000 gold. That is a 8,550,000 gold profit. How is that to high? It is a gold sink, get used to it.
If you are getting money from the deal you are paying a tax. You do not like the tax then charge the person for the tax? I say this opens up trade in a whole new way.
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Playing a trader is more than selling off excess goods. You have to have a steady supply, and that involves constantly buying low and selling high. Oftentimes, that includes buying those 1000 beer for 103 per unit, then selling another 1000 beer for 105 per unit. There's also the game within the game, which is attempting to control the markets. Market prices do not spring forth naturally. They are manipulated by a select dedicated few. This was a fun way minigame to play with small rivalries forming. All of this is completely impossible now.
I understand the need to have a gold sink. I really do, and I think that having a tax is a good thing, but when connected with all the other changes, it totally seems to eliminate the trader role. I just came back to the game so I haven't been able to actually implement trade specialization, so perhaps I don't have enough data, but by studying what will be needed and making some assumptions, a player will have to have several cities dedicated to simply trading, while before two cities with mild specialization was enough.
| The new tax forces you to offer and accept trades that make sense, assuming the point is not to lose gold on a trade, preferably gaining gold. Unless you have billions to spare for funding your buying/selling habit, it will force you to act like a trader. In that way it is not a gold sink but quite the opposite as it forces the trader to create added value when making trades.
As I understand it, this system addresses the major gripe everyone had with the trade scoring system, the fact that it was an easy system to game and thus became meaningless: * The trading scores are now based on what you sell = on the goods you provide to the market. * Providing goods to the market, either through accepting or posting trade offers, is being taxed at 1-7.5% |
The tax will not change people manipulating the trade score. Large players that wish to artificially drive their score up will have no problem paying that extra 7.5 tax. In some ways, I think it's even easier to artificially drive up the score. Sell 1 piece of wood for 10 million gold, have someone in your alliance buy it, return the favor, and you now have two people with 10 million trade points.
Edited by Jalont - 12 Aug 2012 at 16:41
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GM Stormcrow
Moderator Group
GM
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Location: Illyria
Status: Offline
Points: 3820
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 15:09 |
Nokigon wrote:
(snip)
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+100 and eleventy illypoints to Nokigon, by default
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Nokigon
Postmaster General
Player Council - Historian
Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1452
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 15:04 |
What I find interesting is that none have questioned the need for the tax on this forum in an in-game perspective. Therefore I would like to claim the honour of being the first. King Sigurd has on this day laid a tax on all those who reside within his territory. Many of those who wish either to toady up to him or who genuinely believe that he is a good king may claim that this tax is there so that his Kingdom may run with the splendour, ability and diligenece which it deserves. Well, you might say, that's doubtless. But the doubts will soon creep into your mind. Why now, you might ask? Why does King Sigurd need this now? Perhaps he is running out of money. Perhaps his wars are not going as well as we are encouraged to believe. Perhaps he has squandered it on feasts, or maybe he sent all of his gold attempting to save the financial ruin of his brother, the Duke of Keppen. Our noble King continues the traditions of his forebears, regularly dispensing gifts to all who would seek to settle in the civilised parts of Illyria that truly count for something. This is stated on the homepage of the council of Illyria. If I remember correctly, the gift of which he speaks is the new player package. It has been two years since I received such a thing- how regular. And also, I believe, it was comprised of some 500 of each resource, 3 thousand gold and a horse. The new 7.5% tax rate would cover that, and more, in one transaction. One has to wonder whether the King is also attempting to fragment his subjects by banning the collective market and by allowing us only to trade with those nearby to us. Why would he do that, I wonder? Is it to prevent us from trading with those in the remote corners of the map, far away from the influence of King Sigurd n his tower at Centrum? And why are the Circle of Five so wary about talking to the Herald. Is there more to this story? In this dark and confusing hour, the words of the Undying Flame may ring more true to all: And who are they who line their pockets with your taxes - and send your sons and daughters to perish, unknown and unshriven in unmarked graves on foreign fields? King Sigurd wishes to both enrich himself with this taxation, as well as to weaken his potential enemies by causing conflict amongst those who would be united against his tyranny. Mark my words, the Council of Illyria wish to enrich themselves at the cost of your hardworking citizens. Beware, people of Illyria. Tyranny is in the air.
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Salararius
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 14:57 |
We just went from a one variable market (time) to a two variable market (time and region). The opportunity for profit just increased orders of magnitude for traders. A fragmented market is where traders thrive and a global market takes out a lot of their profit opportunity. The traders world just got magnitudes more interesting. You can shift your trader around exploring prices for many items at many different trading markets. Nobody not focused on trading can afford the time to "learn the markets" so a focused traders advantage increases. A single city can pay huge dividends without needing to field an army to protect resources. Learning the "lay of the [trade] land" so to speak will be valuable if the Illy pop remains above a critical mass. I do not see how anyone can call themselves a "trader" and not see the profit potential in this. All this whining about the "tax" ignores just how much opportunity this presents.
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Quackers
Forum Warrior
Joined: 19 Nov 2011
Location: Jeff City
Status: Offline
Points: 435
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Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 11:42 |
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One thing to remember is once we are able to influence the faction hub into liking us, the tax can be brought down to 1%.
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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.
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11AUG12 - MAJOR RELEASE (Trade)
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