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Why TLR fell

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    Posted: 24 May 2015 at 00:35
Originally posted by Captain Kindly Captain Kindly wrote:

I replied to twilights on this earlier today, but let me repeat the History Lesson:
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Land Claims are far from new. 

When I was in EE, 3 years ago, an alliance called Fremen Society claimed Fremorn. And they went 'Join us, move, or die' at us. That included 4 EE leaders, including myself at the time. They didn't back it up, but the threat was there.

DARK claimed the Western Realm, and was agressive at it at the start. Two EE Leaders were involved there. One moved his cities away during the Consone War. The other became a Crow in that war.

And then there is Mal Motsha. Three alliances went at it there. They are now joined in DSD.

Abstractdream may remember that TVM (or its predecessor) tried a claim on Ursor.

If you do not want to play ball, do not go to BL. But do not preach on what Illy should be about.

EDIT: the recent land claims I have seen are a lot more friendly than those I mentioned above.


The TLR claim was met with failure due to a flaw within the leadership, not so much the lack of ability within the membership to defend that claim. While it certainly gathered the attention of existing powerblocs (including meddling ones that delight in nothing more than poking at smaller groups then throwing up a 'what are you going to do' gesture). Even with the presence of these groups that purposely sought to create conflict, the TLR alliance was more than capable of maintaining an influence and gradually exerting control.

I would say that the fall of TLR was due to two things: the power corruption of myself, and that of Bonfyr Verboo.How did TLR collapse due to its leadership, and not the existing powerblocs? Easy, we had the backing of a confederation, the Night Confederation.

 After securing Night Confederation as an ally, things looked up for TLR. I cannot completely understand why Night would throw in some weight with TLR though if I would guess: TLR was originally a Night Confed alliance that was later abandoned by them(perhaps some guilt remained with throwing the new players away), perhaps simply they liked myself and/or Bonfyr, or perhaps they noted our precarious placement in Elgea and decided they could make us a protectorate. Whatever their reasoning, with Night Confederation backing our capacity to win wars drastically increased. 

After the string of military successes, this alliance grew all the more cocky while not actually gaining more individual military strength. It became a regular practice to 'execute' members that did not abide by alliance law, or simply was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I believe I ordered the execution of a spy account that belonged to VIC at one point.These fear tactics kept the alliance membership in control and the existing leaders on top. You may ask why these members stayed within this newly corrupted alliance, and the answer is simple. They had nowhere to turn.

TLR had long maintained an anti Crow propaganda stance. If you were a Crow confed member, you were the lowest of the low, you turned on your own, you desecrate alliances of good standing, and it goes on. For a TLR member to willingly talk with a Crow member and to not accompany that conversation with blind cursing was unheard of, and TLR members that did consort with Crow would be either punished, or their influence removed. A few members did manage to break out and 'flee' to Crow, and they of course were branded as Crow agents and their reputation tarnished. 

The fall was soon to be complete when I caught Bonfyr Verboo talking to Night Confederation's Myr. They were conspiring to seize control of TLR, and place it under Bonfyr's control (in a much earlier arrangement, Bonfyr's alternate account went off to a Night Confed training alliance. This is where Bonfyr and Myr's relationship grew as large if not larger as Mine and Myr's). I quickly released edicts and thrust Bonfyr at an inferior rank. I should have expulsed him from the alliance, but I was already aware of the support her had within my ranks, and feared a mass desertion if he was kicked. I talked to a few trusted officers, and was guaranteed their backing(this backing was not military, but to help ensure that the TLR masses stayed in their ranks and did not go astray. If the 2nd in command and the senior officers departed, then the plebs would be sure to as well).

After a point, we were involved in a war against Elysium Fields. With my cockiness, I refused to back down from what was a simple misunderstanding, and with the backing of TLR leadership we went to war. We were unsupported, and our enemies were numerous (and significantly larger than our largest members). War exhaustion was high, and our attempts of tearing down strategic enemy cities were repulsed. Faced with loss after loss and while I was away during RL issues, Bonfyr enacted his plan. He sent out letters enticing the plebs to flee, and that nothing but death awaited them. Night Confed quickly backed Bonfyr's takeover. 

You can see the end result. Trivium was born from the dying ashes of TLR, but their birth was not clean. They maintained similar TLR policies of aggressive expansion, and quickly moved to absorb the various splinter TLR groups that refused to join Trivium. 

TLR fell due to internal power corruption, not another powerbloc resisting the  Greater Ursor claim. 

Edit: I noticed some odd sentences and attempted to correct them. 
edit2: I still have noticed some missing segments, and will try to find files of this instance (though I doubt I would have kept records for this long)
 


Edited by ES2 - 24 May 2015 at 02:10


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abstractdream Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2016 at 00:07
I wrote this about a week after the OP. I took a breath and reconsidered the reply but after over a year, and Eternal Fire's apparent permanent departure, I figure I may as well. I wrote this directly addressing the OP and don't believe it is necessary to alter that. I just want to set the record straight where I feel it is not. 

Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

The TLR claim was met with failure due to a flaw within the leadership, not so much the lack of ability within the membership to defend that claim.


I maintain there was no "official" claim. We declared our intention to settle the area but did not make a claim as has been done in TBL. The thread here: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/the-long-road-tlr_topic2887_post34876.html#34876 is as close as TLR ever came to a land claim.


Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

While it certainly gathered the attention of existing powerblocs (including meddling ones that delight in nothing more than poking at smaller groups then throwing up a 'what are you going to do' gesture). Even with the presence of these groups that purposely sought to create conflict, the TLR alliance was more than capable of maintaining an influence and gradually exerting control.


I would say that the fall of TLR was due to two things: the power corruption of myself, and that of Bonfyr Verboo.How did TLR collapse due to its leadership, and not the existing powerblocs? Easy, we had the backing of a confederation, the Night Confederation.


After securing Night Confederation as an ally, things looked up for TLR. I cannot completely understand why Night would throw in some weight with TLR though if I would guess: TLR was originally a Night Confed alliance that was later abandoned by them(perhaps some guilt remained with throwing the new players away), perhaps simply they liked myself and/or Bonfyr, or perhaps they noted our precarious placement in Elgea and decided they could make us a protectorate. Whatever their reasoning, with Night Confederation backing our capacity to win wars drastically increased.


It is a clear indication of your disconnect from the players who supported you, despite your actions that you don't fully grasp why the Night Confederation was beginning to align itself with TLR.


Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

After the string of military successes, this alliance grew all the more cocky while not actually gaining more individual military strength. It became a regular practice to 'execute' members that did not abide by alliance law, or simply was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I believe I ordered the execution of a spy account that belonged to VIC at one point.These fear tactics kept the alliance membership in control and the existing leaders on top. You may ask why these members stayed within this newly corrupted alliance, and the answer is simple. They had nowhere to turn.


You say they had nowhere to turn, yet you will momentarily explain where two important members actually went. I will also say that there were significant accounts who left TLR and found other homes. I believe at least one member left and never joined another alliance yet was never harassed. These "executions" you said you ordered were less than numerous. It happened in the HEAT war. I don't recall any other orders to go after any particular players.


Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

TLR had long maintained an anti Crow propaganda stance. If you were a Crow confed member, you were the lowest of the low, you turned on your own, you desecrate alliances of good standing, and it goes on. For a TLR member to willingly talk with a Crow member and to not accompany that conversation with blind cursing was unheard of, and TLR members that did consort with Crow would be either punished, or their influence removed. A few members did manage to break out and 'flee' to Crow, and they of course were branded as Crow agents and their reputation tarnished.


Here you describe where at least two of our most influential members went after leaving TLR. Another, a dwarf found a home in a respected dwarf only alliance. As for “members that did consort with Crow,” who was that? I don't recall any members punished for "consorting" with Crow members.


Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

The fall was soon to be complete when I caught Bonfyr Verboo talking to Night Confederation's Myr. They were conspiring to seize control of TLR, and place it under Bonfyr's control (in a much earlier arrangement, Bonfyr's alternate account went off to a Night Confed training alliance. This is where Bonfyr and Myr's relationship grew as large if not larger as Mine and Myr's). I quickly released edicts and thrust Bonfyr at an inferior rank. I should have expulsed him from the alliance, but I was already aware of the support her had within my ranks, and feared a mass desertion if he was kicked. I talked to a few trusted officers, and was guaranteed their backing(this backing was not military, but to help ensure that the TLR masses stayed in their ranks and did not go astray. If the 2nd in command and the senior officers departed, then the plebs would be sure to as well).


Almost this entire paragraph is a product of your paranoia. I will take it point by point:

  1. You think you caught me talking to Myr, when in fact I'd been talking to her for weeks about the Night Confederation taking TLR in and I'd spoken to you on several occasions about my doing just that.

  2. We were conspiring to seize control of TLR and place it under my control? How incredibly obtuse you had to be to think that. The sitting rights I had on your account gave me the opportunity to take control of TLR any time I wanted. Not only that but when you "caught" me talking to Myr, you revoked the rights and then, in a very short time, reinstated those rights. I could have taken control almost any time I wanted to. Let's assume that's not true, why would I remain in TLR and try to take it over when I could have left like DTrooper & Queen T, or Fromfrak did. I could have joined any number of other alliances, including the Nightbringers and would not have had any fear of retribution what-so-ever.

  3. Once you placed me in a punitive role, why did I stay? Do you think I believed I could still take over? You alone had superuser status. How could I take over? I stayed because I thought you'd snap out of it and act like a reasonable person. I had faith in you. I was wrong and that faith ebbed away as the days went on.


Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

After a point, we were involved in a war against Elysium Fields. With my cockiness, I refused to back down from what was a simple misunderstanding, and with the backing of TLR leadership we went to war.


You unilaterally declared war. You had the backing of leadership because they had faith in you. That faith would drain away in short order.


Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

We were unsupported, and our enemies were numerous (and significantly larger than our largest members). War exhaustion was high, and our attempts of tearing down strategic enemy cities were repulsed. Faced with loss after loss and while I was away during RL issues, Bonfyr enacted his plan. He sent out letters enticing the plebs to flee, and that nothing but death awaited them. Night Confed quickly backed Bonfyr's takeover.


So, I planned for you to declare war on SHADE and disappear to leave the members to fight blind? I planned to be moved to a punitive role and then leave, hoping the members would follow? SHADE's leader told me he would no longer target any members of TLR who left the alliance. I planned that?


Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

You can see the end result. Trivium was born from the dying ashes of TLR, but their birth was not clean. They maintained similar TLR policies of aggressive expansion, and quickly moved to absorb the various splinter TLR groups that refused to join Trivium.


I'm not sure what you mean by "clean." We offered a place for every member of TLR. One ex-member decided to form his own alliance and Dano did not like that. His actions brought attention and TVM had to reel him in. Otherwise, every member of TLR who did not come to TVM were left to their own devices. TLR’s default leader, HAGER (put in charge after the Crow emissary you brought in left) felt TLR was dying and wanted to join another alliance. I offered TVM and he accepted.


Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

TLR fell due to internal power corruption, not another powerbloc resisting the  Greater Ursor claim.


TLR fell due to paranoia and bad decisions by its leader. That player's history will show the pattern that led to the inevitable fall to anyone who cares to investigate .


Bonfyr Verboo
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