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Who Is TUF

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Agalloch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Agalloch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2016 at 13:07
Originally posted by Lotharblack Lotharblack wrote:

KenRychard being a greek myself i believe you are portraying us wrong. 

There is no way us admiting of doing the wrond thing. 

And probably we would be the ones throwing the cigarette to our yard and then wrongly accusing the neighbour and burning down his house....  Opa! 

Tongue

hahaha right on brother!!! Opa!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2016 at 13:33
Originally posted by KenRychard KenRychard wrote:

    Landclaimers want to declare a portion of the game map as a territory solely  their own, and declare they will attack and raze anyone who settles in their area.
    But OUTSIDE their landclaim  they want the right to settle as freely as any other player... SO, their areas are off limits to others, but they get free run of the rest of the map.


I always found this ... "interesting" (in an annoying sort of way)  Tongue

Of course, anyone is free to make claims, but they need some way of enforcing the claims.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2016 at 17:45
Well done, Ken.  But I would add another game to the list of games where land claiming destroyed the game, one quite similar to Illyriad, Lords of Ultima.

When I came to LoU 5 years ago the process had been well along the way where large alliances formed confederations with "daughter" alliances and claimed continents for themselves.  They then insisted everybody else move and if you didn't you were removed, even driven from the game.  These players all practiced the standard "aggressive game play" style, including the nasty talk and "it's a war game" philosophy.  They all insisted on there being two classes of players, the "warriors" who were to be admired and held up as the true standard of perfection, and the "farmers" who were just to be farmed.  In LoU there was no community who stood up and insisted that those who wished to be anything but a warrior be treated fairly or left alone, and there was not friendly a GC.  The GC there was avoided by almost everybody because to show up and say anything contrary to the doctrines of the Holy Warrior Church was considered an act of aggression to be dealt with post haste...by, of course, sending armies.    In the end the game turned too nasty to attract and keep new players and was shut down due to revenues being too small to justify it continuing.

Now I can't say with certainty that there were no other factor influencing shutting it down, but I can say that it failed to attract and keep new players because their was no place for any but the well organized, military minded players to exist AND if even if you wished to do so you were hounded into either joining them or being continuously farmed. 

That is the history of several games where the sandbox was left in the hands of the aggressive game players.  It's bee suggest that dividing this game into a "war continent" and a "peace continent" would help solve this problem by giving the aggressive game players their own space.  But this is not possible as it only tells new players they are restricted to even less land and opportunity unless they agree to being dominated by warriors.  It is neither fair nor tenable a solution.  It would restrict the opportunities of new players and, the nature of "aggressive game play" is such that there would be reason to respect such a rule because "aggressive game play" means being the one to make the rules.   And don't kid yourself, there are already alliances on Elgea who practice aggressive game play.

We have had about a year to see how land claims have effected the game.  As one who has consistently suffered at the hands of the land claimers for daring to even speak up, I can attest to the idea that it's not been, for me, just a question of freedom of settlement, but even one of freedom of speech.  In that it follows the same pattern of "aggressive game play" I experienced in Lords of Ultima and you may have experienced in other games.  We have had a year and what have we learned?

First, as just noted, that we are not allowed to object.  When you do you are attacked both verbally (in some of the nastiest terms) and in the game.

Second, we have learned that the determination of the land is such that even the most flimsy of excuses will be used to go to war.  Even when other things have been said that would preclude the excuse.  Like, "the war is over no matter what [the other person does]" followed by repeated attacks because the other person didn't check the "accept peace" button.  "No matter what" the other person does, means exactly that.  And when somebody in a BL based alliance jokes that he wants to take a much larger Elgea base alliances' mine, it's taken as a real threat.  And when somebody says that somebody said something disparaging about somebody else, the "offended" alliance "feels" it's enough to declare war.  Any excuse will do, and none is even needed (as Jejune recognizes) if you practice "aggressive game play."

Third, we have learned that the determination of the land claimers to dominate is such that they have no sense of fair play.  Six players and two alliances against one person has been done.  Two large alliances against one smaller than either.  And we have seen the argument that these odds are somehow "fair" since the smaller can beat the larger if they do everything right....ignoring the idea that the larger usually has more or as much experience and more resources and can also, do everything right. 

Fourth, we have learned that the land claimers make no bones about expanding their claims.  Pawa is being claimed by Yarr.  It's been suggested they take even the small sliver of Almenly where my cities reside into their claim.  At the same time, they see no problem settling where ever they like.  Which, of course, means, they can dominate more area.  As I said in one of my forum posts before, you can dominate all BL with just three clusters.  One land claiming alliance now has two and there is no reason to suppose they will not out-grow the current actual claim and suddenly decide they need another. 

Above all this though, is the attitude the Illy that their personal enjoyment means they get to make the rules and if you don't like it, shut up or be punished.  That's "aggressive game play" and it's what will take us down the road to perdition...a road you do not wish to travel, if we do not take action.

Actions to be taken. (Since I have nothing to lose at this point). 

1) If you lead an alliance, wake up.  Your alliance is needed.  You are more responsible for the health of Illyriad more than those of us who are small.  When you wake up a year from now and some "aggressive game player" is at your door, it may be too late. 

2) If you do not lead an alliance and you can't get them to MOVE, move yourself.  TUF or any other alliance who is willing to move against "aggressive game play" will welcome you.  If you don't like TUF or can't find one that you do like, form your own and then recruit.

3) If you are a small player or don't wish to get involved militarily for whatever reasons, you can always support the effort with donations.  Anonymity is guaranteed if you contact me.

4) Finally, and most importantly, you need to talk.  You need to speak to people about the issue.  You need to recruit them to join you in stopping the aggressive game players from destroying this game like they have too many others.

AJ  [ajqtrz]


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Borg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2016 at 18:39
Ken,
  I understand your handwringing about land claims. I really do. I am obviously in SIN and we are an unabashed land claiming alliance. I have played this game on and off since 2013. I feel the game has become "stale" for lack of a better term. I personally believe this is a war game. I don't believe this game is a trading/crafting/farming game as others may believe. Just look at the research tree as evidence of this.  I believe the land claimers have added something to a dying game that no others have added in years. Lets be honest for a minute. This game is dying. Interest is waning. I point to the amount of inactive/sat accounts out there as proof of this. If we were to clean these accounts out I would bet you 40% of Elgea would be empty. Land claimers and their wars are creating a "buzz" in this game. Maybe that "buzz" can save the game from extinction and maybe not. Look at GC for example. Do you find any intelligent conversation going on in GC? I see virtual hugs and hot tubs. War loving alliances add the dimension of risk to the game. Good needs Evil. Day needs Night. Ying needs Yang.
I hope I was able to communicate my thoughts for the reader of this post. If I lost you in my thought process I apologize.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Jejune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2016 at 19:19
AJ's claim that land claims will destroy the game of Illyriad is hyperbole. It's fear-mongering -- pure demagoguery.

A year ago, when land claims were expanding rapidly, he had a much better point than he does today. After a year of land claims, the number and scope of land claims has contracted, not expanded. The reason for this is simple: lots of alliances experimented with them, but only few had the organization, leadership, and infrastructure to enforce and maintain them.

AJ is always demanding "evidence" for people who disagree with him. Well, here's some evidence. I quickly put together this slideshow of every major land claiming event over the past year. Take a look at where we were in July of last year and now.


As you can see, land claims are not running roughshod over the server, forcing people from the game left and right. 

If players want to be anti-claim and use it as a pretext for conflict in the game, then great. That's in part what they were designed to do. But let's quit the fear-mongering about them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2016 at 19:35
Baldrick arises from his Friday afternoon nap to make another observation...

He notes that as of today there are 5,374 player accounts with non zero scores.  He also remembers checking these figures a year or two ago and back then from memory there were in the region of 5,000 to 5,500 such accounts.  All things being equal, Baldrick reckons that the game is surviving, and it would be doing better, if the focus wasn't on AoA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Curmudgeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2016 at 19:46
I am not reading all of AJ's latest diatribe, but I notice he mentions Lord of Ultima, which I played (and dare I say won in the 2nd fastest time ever as part of a largely rookie alliance).

Land claimers did not ruin that game, they played it to it's max. It was a wargame with an endgame and controlling regions was essential. It was a 100% military game and although many Illy players played it, there is no direct comparison to be made.

Edit : Thinking about it I may have been a continent leader sent to squish a rival alliances home continent in LoU and there was a player there with lots of letters in his name, so Aj's bitterness may be partly my fault. Sorry everyone.


Edited by Curmudgeon - 06 May 2016 at 19:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Djehuti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2016 at 22:24
" As one who has consistently suffered at the hands of the land claimers for daring to even speak up, I can attest to the idea that it's not been, for me, just a question of freedom of settlement, but even one of freedom of speech. "  -  ajqtrz

Perhaps this has more to do with you - the relationships youve made over your time in the game and the way you've spoken to people - and less to do with what topics you've been addressing? I am aware of a number of players in BL who have been openly objective towards the idea of land claims, yet have not been subject to hostilities in any way.


" even the most flimsy of excuses will be used to go to war" - ajqtrz

I'm somewhat new to this game, but i recall a story about a huge war that started over a trove mine far before BL or land claims. Perhaps I heard the story wrong tho.

As far as your third point, this also doesnt seem to directly relate to the topic of land claims - alliances have had the option and sometimes chose to do this long before the LC topic.

Your forth point, however, I would be more prone to agree with. Personally, I do like the idea of land claims to an extent, but it is an idea that can easily be abused. I would suggest some sort of agreement needs to be reached as far as how much land a single alliance can "claim", though to do this would require a lot of people with different opinions coming together, so I don't know that it would be possible.

I would also point out, however, that these same actions you are arguing against could very easily take place without the presence of land claims. One does not need a claim to decide they don't want such-and-such alliance in a certain area near them. As AJ pointed out, wars can be started over any reason. I think too many people are too quick to blame the LC movement for their troubles, rather than admitting that maybe these conflicts are taking place because some players join games like this (games that are largely centered around warfare options) because they like to play war. And that's not a wrong or evil choice - if the game mechanics support it, then it is obviously a feasible path to take in a game.

Another point to consider: perhaps if so many players weren't perpetuating an us VS them stance (LC VS anti-LC), then maybe the LC alliances would be more focused on fighting each other, instead of allying together against the anti-LC opposition. While not all LC alliances have confederations, it does seem a vast majority of them have unofficially agreed to leave each other be in favor of a more united defense against those they view as a threat to their way of game play. The anti-LCers seem to have lumped all the alliances who have LCs together, and as a result, the LCers have a common enemy - without that common enemy, I image LCs would have progressed a lot differently. But, this is of course merely speculation and opinion.


Hmm... i didn't really mean to write so much - it kinda got away from me there. Anyway, that's just another 2 cents among a pile of pennies.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tink XX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2016 at 00:15
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:



1) If you lead an alliance, wake up.  Your alliance is needed.  You are more responsible for the health of Illyriad more than those of us who are small.  When you wake up a year from now and some "aggressive game player" is at your door, it may be too late. 

2) If you do not lead an alliance and you can't get them to MOVE, move yourself.  TUF or any other alliance who is willing to move against "aggressive game play" will welcome you.  If you don't like TUF or can't find one that you do like, form your own and then recruit.



Yay, let the server war begin! Star
P.S. Not gonna happen ofc. But nice try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Angrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2016 at 03:24
comparing LoU to illyriad is misleading at best. LoU was a finite game designed to be won, and won militarily. it developed the sort of player who was good at doing that. you get what you reward. it neither was nor was intended to be a sandbox.
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