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TVM - SHARK Conflict

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Jejune View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Jejune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2015 at 18:04
I like what Ricky is saying.

One of the real benefits of the land claims is that they are a pretext for war, strategic conquest, tangible victory, and something that can be lost in surrender terms that means a lot and yet isn't anything as "real" as gold or cities. 

Granted, the land claims have meant different things to different alliances: some use them to establish room to grow an alliance, while other see them as a way to control harvestable resources. However, Rick's right: the long-play for land claims -- at least from my perspective -- was to encourage friction among alliances who would eventually wish to occupy the land same lands. I know that the concern has been that noobs would get caught in the cross-fire of that kind of play, but as Hal said earlier, Illyriad is dominated by alliance play, and so now we're beginning to see the fruits of the land claim initiative enhancing gameplay.

At first, I thought that it would take two claiming alliances next to each other to have this kind of situation. But I think that the TVM/SHARK conflict is proving that the claims themselves can be a pretext for strategic warfare over key tracts of land even if one of the two alliances involved in the conflict is not counter-claiming or even a "believer" in land claims. 

By all means, there are no hapless victims in this conflict. No one is getting "bullied" here. To me, this is a political issue in every sense of the word, and all of the talk of bullying behavior is just rhetoric and hyperbole.

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Rill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2015 at 19:08
Perhaps the arguing about land claims should be adjourned to some other thread?  Not that there's really anything new to be said about the subject.
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Jejune View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jejune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2015 at 19:11
I agree that any discussion of land claims in this thread should be couched in the larger discussion of the conflict at hand. I think that I did that in my post, but if not, I'll try harder next time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pellinell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2015 at 19:32
By all means, there are no hapless victims in this conflict. No one is getting "bullied" here. To me, this is a political issue in every sense of the word, and all of the talk of bullying behavior is just rhetoric and hyperbole.


Rhetoric and hyperbole are part of politics lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2015 at 19:39
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Perhaps the arguing about land claims should be adjourned to some other thread?  Not that there's really anything new to be said about the subject.

Land Claiming is an integral part of the current "conflict".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurordan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2015 at 05:13
Relevant:
http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/war-declarations_topic6591.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote viperone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2015 at 08:32
Too new to know the political history that may have played a role in the most recent war declarations; however, all history aside it makes great military sense to attack a perceived threat prior to them reaching full strength or military capability.  Often alliances are judged on past history and trust is very difficult to establish.  It shall be interesting to see if the declaring alliances waited too long or pushed the button in a nick of time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote palmz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2015 at 11:05
I think this is a powder keg, I think some one will step in and do something that will force others in to the fray, this will likely turn in to a much bigger conflict. 

I suppose time will tell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jejune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2015 at 12:29
Originally posted by palmz palmz wrote:

I think this is a powder keg, I think some one will step in and do something that will force others in to the fray, this will likely turn in to a much bigger conflict. 

I sure hope not. Pellinell has told the community time and time again that the BL alliance members of DSD are equipped to defend the land claims. Assuming that's true, one would think that TVM, TSC, and RE make a relatively even match against SHARK, the #1 alliance in the game. As you said, we shall see.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2015 at 13:49
Originally posted by Dungshoveleux Dungshoveleux wrote:

Land Claiming is an integral part of the current "conflict".
SHARK says not, i'm inclined to give them that benefit.
if it didn't come across in my prior post, i think this particular thread is more pointless than usual. A few observations to illustrate that thought:
  1. an advantage of the 10-square rule over free form land claims is that the 10-square rule is reciprocal and self-limiting; that is, it functions on the basis of a game mechanic (the placement of towns) and, on that basis, can be supported in the abstract as a right for all players.
  2. a free form land claim may be reasonable or unreasonable to any individual observer, but there is no universal basis on which to judge reasonableness because there is no independent basis for limiting the size of a land claim.
  3. for this reason, "land claiming" alliances do not endorse the legitimacy of all land claims based on the principle, they only defend the right of an alliance to make a claim. legitimacy must be demonstrated, potentially through combat, because there is no way inherent to the land claiming process to evaluate the reasonableness of an individual claim.

the land claim "system" depends to some extent on periodic challenges and, as Ricky has correctly pointed out, if SHARK is being honest about its motivations it is doing no more than is asked of it by testing the extent of TVM's claim. i don't see a moral issue here. those that insist on imposing one are either making motive attributions that SHARK has denied, trying to capitalise on the situation for reasons of their own, or both. (i am also slightly amused by the idea that, by steadfastly refusing to recognise a land claim, SHARK has become part of the process of vetting it.)



Edited by Angrim - 24 Sep 2015 at 13:50
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