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Nokigon View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 19:24
I always love the occasional bright spark- or quite a few of them, as the case may be- who decides it's a good idea to use siege engines to defend. I mean, really, have you really got so little troops you're willing to use something that can move at 6 sq/h (human battering ram under commander with Maxed Forced March- couldn't say about other races, but would say that elves would be a bit quicker, dwarves slower and orcs about the same), is the most expensive unit to build and adds nothing to a defence. I know you might want to get rid of them but really, it's less time-consuming (and commander consuming) to just disband them.
As for the orcs- I think you're being a bit harsh on them, Creat. I have played all 4 races, although humans for longest (I just love cav) and I think that the pure cheapness of a Kobold Cohort as well as it's relatively powerful strength compared to other units is pretty telling. I think that a 20k Orc city (probably would have to be 7 food square, but we'll skate over that), with a Lvl 20 spearmans billet, with the right taxes could probably hold 50k Kobold Cohorts (in minus gold p/h, but you could maintain that rate for a while IMO)- which is a force not to be sniffed at by any standard.
 
I think I had better stop typing before I use another bracket.
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Ander View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 20:47
Originally posted by Nokigon Nokigon wrote:

 the pure cheapness of a Kobold Cohort as well as it's relatively powerful strength compared to other units is pretty telling. I think that a 20k Orc city (probably would have to be 7 food square, but we'll skate over that), with a Lvl 20 spearmans billet, with the right taxes could probably hold 50k Kobold Cohorts (in minus gold p/h, but you could maintain that rate for a while IMO)

A city of 20K size at 70% tax should be able to hold 100,000 Kobolds, with two spearmen's billet, with positive gold production. But fortunately we don't see such bands around because it takes a lot of time to train that many number of units.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 21:45
Hm 100K kobolds... would take to train 192 days with level 20 barracks and 200% sov bonus. It is possible, but kobolds have a nasty habit of dying in large numbers too. Especially because they are often used as cannon fodders...
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Createure View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 01:36
The main problem is that it takes massively less time (like weeks/months less) to train 33k Trueshots or 33k Stalwarts or 25% T2 cavs than 100k kobolds... which is why spears are basically redundant for anything who takes part in tournaments and actually uses their army... sure if you never lose troops then you can train a strong spear army. Problem is we generally all do use troops.

Troop upkeep should more accurately reflect their training time... if it did then we would see a more even spread of unit use. As things are we will continue to see that the majority of all troops trained+used by all the races will be T2 bows and T2 cavs - as can clearly be seen from the tourny stats.


Edited by Createure - 28 Mar 2012 at 01:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 03:26
Originally posted by Createure Createure wrote:

The main problem is that it takes massively less time (like weeks/months less) to train 33k Trueshots or 33k Stalwarts or 25% T2 cavs than 100k kobolds... which is why spears are basically redundant for anything who takes part in tournaments and actually uses their army... sure if you never lose troops then you can train a strong spear army. Problem is we generally all do use troops.

Troop upkeep should more accurately reflect their training time... if it did then we would see a more even spread of unit use. As things are we will continue to see that the majority of all troops trained+used by all the races will be T2 bows and T2 cavs - as can clearly be seen from the tourny stats.

I totally agree. Training times should reflect unit gold upkeep.
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Ander View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 08:15
orcs and elves have T1 units they can train without costing armor/saddles. I'd favour training time reflecting gold upkeep, only if the unit costs are made same across all races.

It makes no sense for humans to spend 4 leather armor to train 4 T1 pikes instead of spending two saddles to make one knight, even if the training time is decreased. But even now, orcs have good reason to make kobolds. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 08:48
i still just would like to know the percent of spears dead that are mine lol

Orc is cool, dwarf is cool, elf is cool, human is cool
we all cool, esp when you maximize! (anyone else get the Beastwars reference?)

anyway, i agree with Createure

I wish, wish so badly that the mods would have made the %bonus's for commander's race based and not just unit based

at mo I rool with a wolfrider (t1 cav) and Clan Gaurdsman (t2 spearman)
why? cause i want to be able to attack and defend with my spears the best i can against what they are know for killing...Horses 

I just need to be more strict on my self and kill off other commanders maybe...idk, and just say to myself, "spears only"...? maybe a mod could actually make a guide and help us out a bit, i mean really, i dont play games to do the math, i want the math done for me and spelled out in plain english please

all the extra research i had into this game is redic, i want in game guide and better race bonus's and factions last year

but at same time, i know i dont do 100% everything that i could/should be with the knowledge i have, but the time it takes and compared to the time i had put in before updates, just makes me take my time...lol and by that i mean, get it done, but slowly, esp since i dont trust the game to not change 150% again...like it already did, multiple times...(how many orc pics and town pics have we gone through? pretty sure people not here for graphics, just an fyi)

and still though, i know i dont know everything and maybe everything is equal and has been thought of, maybe i just need to find my races "secret" and then the scrawny wolf can be made in barracks, idk, but i do know that i love throwing my spears at walls and/or making a wall of spears and just watching the death toll rise as the troops fall like dominoes 

I do love you guys (all of you, from GM and Mods, to all those who played back when i still had a nub shield, to the new guy that i randomly donate 250k gold to) was just doing what i do best which is speak my mind and question things

i need structure!!!!!!
Ying Yang




Edited by lokifeyson - 28 Mar 2012 at 08:50
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Createure View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 13:03
Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

orcs and elves have T1 units they can train without costing armor/saddles. I'd favour training time reflecting gold upkeep, only if the unit costs are made same across all races.

It makes no sense for humans to spend 4 leather armor to train 4 T1 pikes instead of spending two saddles to make one knight, even if the training time is decreased. But even now, orcs have good reason to make kobolds. 



The problem is bigger for elves tbh... they already have a T1 unit that's at least twice as powerful as the kobold with about the same production time but twice the unit upkeep... elves can already train an army twice as strong as Orcs in the same time frame for the same resource costs.
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Createure View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 13:24
For example. Compare these 2 'no leather' specialist armies - built with the same gold upkeep:

50k sentinels would take 3.73 months to train with a 200% production bonus.

100k kobolds would take 6.22 months to train with a 200% production bonus.

Total offense of sentinel army: 1,000,000 Total offense of kobold army: 900,000

Total average defense of sentinel army: 1,075,000 Total average defense of kobold army: 1,075,000

Pretty similar - although sentinels clearly have the edge, as well as performing better on more terrain. And don't forget that the kobold army has twice as high production costs as the sentinel army.

----------------------------------

Now compare these armies trained in the same time-frame: 3.73 months

50k sentinels would take 3.73 months to train with a 200% production bonus.

60k kobolds would take 3.73 months to train with a 200% production bonus.

Total offense of sentinel army: 1,000,000 Total offense of kobold army: 540,000

Total average defense of sentinel army: 1,075,000 Total average defense of kobold army: 645,000

-------------------------------

It does not take a genius to see why Orcs are an unpopular choice.


Edited by Createure - 28 Mar 2012 at 13:27
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Ander View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 13:37
compared with elves, orcs are disadvantaged. but they are still better off than the other two races.

50k archers/slingers or 60K militia/yeomen will take exactly the same amount of time, but with an additional cost of 50K/60K leather armour and 10-50% lower values for different stats.







Edited by Ander - 28 Mar 2012 at 13:37
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