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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 16:04
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

A small % of dwarfs and even smaller of orcs. If those races would be more competitive in military sense, I'm sure those % would be different (humans have best attacking unit and elves best defending unit).


I can't speak for Orcs...

If I could be so proud to say that I know Orcs better than pretty much anyone in Illy...

Armies of Specialist units from ANY of the other races will invariably thrash 7 kinds of hurt to a defending army of the Orc spears on pretty much any terrain when they are matched against each other in equal gold-upkeep value armies.

When instead you match these armies by equal training/production time instead of gold-upkeep then every other race will now pummel the Orc even more soundly...

Orcs have no useful diplomatic unit specialists and no other perks [such as the elf fast units, or their +5% mana+spellrange or the human fast T2 range units or the Dwarf seige specialisation]...

I'd say that pretty much explains why Orcs have 8% presence only... IMO the only people who pick Orc are people who don't understand the disadvantages of the Orc units/race or people who are happy to put themselves at a tactical disadvantage for a love the the green-skins from a role-play point of view or whatever.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 16:22
Originally posted by Createure Createure wrote:


If I could be so proud to say that I know Orcs better than pretty much anyone in Illy...

Armies of Specialist units from ANY of the other races will invariably thrash 7 kinds of hurt to a defending army of the Orc spears on pretty much any terrain when they are matched against each other in equal gold-upkeep value armies.

When instead you match these armies by equal training/production time instead of gold-upkeep then every other race will now pummel the Orc even more soundly...

Orcs have no useful diplomatic unit specialists and no other perks [such as the elf fast units, or their +5% mana+spellrange or the human fast T2 range units or the Dwarf seige specialisation]...

I'd say that pretty much explains why Orcs have 8% presence only... IMO the only people who pick Orc are people who don't understand the disadvantages of the Orc units/race or people who are happy to put themselves at a tactical disadvantage for a love the the green-skins from a role-play point of view or whatever.


Creat-- Don't the Orcs have the best Saboteurs and Spearmen? (although maybe those are not that useful...?)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 16:42
Originally posted by Createure Createure wrote:

Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

A small % of dwarfs and even smaller of orcs. If those races would be more competitive in military sense, I'm sure those % would be different (humans have best attacking unit and elves best defending unit).


I can't speak for Orcs...

If I could be so proud to say that I know Orcs better than pretty much anyone in Illy...

Armies of Specialist units from ANY of the other races will invariably thrash 7 kinds of hurt to a defending army of the Orc spears on pretty much any terrain when they are matched against each other in equal gold-upkeep value armies.

When instead you match these armies by equal training/production time instead of gold-upkeep then every other race will now pummel the Orc even more soundly...

Orcs have no useful diplomatic unit specialists and no other perks [such as the elf fast units, or their +5% mana+spellrange or the human fast T2 range units or the Dwarf seige specialisation]...

I'd say that pretty much explains why Orcs have 8% presence only... IMO the only people who pick Orc are people who don't understand the disadvantages of the Orc units/race or people who are happy to put themselves at a tactical disadvantage for a love the the green-skins from a role-play point of view or whatever.

Maybe also people who like a real challenge?  I can imagine the difficulty of playing an orc would be interesting to some, and I applaud those who play orcs well, because it is more difficult.  I'm always intrigued when I see Createure's battle reports -- it's interesting to see how you use your troops.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 16:59
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

Originally posted by Createure Createure wrote:


Orcs have no useful diplomatic unit specialists 

Don't the Orcs have the best Saboteurs? (although maybe those are not that useful...?)

LOL

Ye Rill I guess you  are right.

I'm always kinda wary about coming across as moaning too much though I'll give it a rest now... people who know me will know I've been saying the same thing for pretty much 2 years straight now... doesn't mean i'm about to give up on the green-skins though. ^^



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 17:41
Originally posted by Createure Createure wrote:


If I could be so proud to say that I know Orcs better than pretty much anyone in Illy...

Armies of Specialist units from ANY of the other races will invariably thrash 7 kinds of hurt to a defending army of the Orc spears on pretty much any terrain when they are matched against each other in equal gold-upkeep value armies.

When instead you match these armies by equal training/production time instead of gold-upkeep then every other race will now pummel the Orc even more soundly...

Orcs have no useful diplomatic unit specialists and no other perks [such as the elf fast units, or their +5% mana+spellrange or the human fast T2 range units or the Dwarf seige specialisation]...

I'd say that pretty much explains why Orcs have 8% presence only... IMO the only people who pick Orc are people who don't understand the disadvantages of the Orc units/race or people who are happy to put themselves at a tactical disadvantage for a love the the green-skins from a role-play point of view or whatever.

Createure, I dont have your kind of knowledge about orcs, but I believe orcs have their tactical advantages as well. Orc cavalry is has the same stats as humans, but for 10% lesser attack. Orc infantry is the second strongest after stalwarts. Orc pikes are loads better than any other pikes in the game.

Armies of Specialist units from ANY of the other races will invariably thrash 7 kinds of hurt to a defending army of the Orc spears on pretty much any terrain when they are matched against each other in equal gold-upkeep value armies, because attack is more powerful than defense. It takes 7 Kobolds to kill an attacking knight - It takes only two and a fraction kobolds to kill a defending knight. (9x attack vs 20 defense)

Orc pikes are so damn cheap, you could build dozens of thousands of spears over months and throw at your enemy without hesitation - it takes time and only time to rebuild them - hardly any valuable resources. 

Talking of build times, there are vast regions on the map where every surrounding tile has +3% spear unit production bonus. (deserts and the frozen north in particular). Unlike in the case of other races, a love for the greenskins from a role play point of view pays well for an orc. 

What is the advantage for a dwarf to settle in mountains? Marching against an siege camp of trueshots on a nearby mountain is the worst possible scenario I can think of for a stalwart. What really is the advantage for elves in woods? Humans love plains obviously because of the 'money thing', but other than that? 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 18:04
i thought the dorfs are still the best to attack whatever on mountains? 
or is there something better to clear a siege camp of trueshots on a mountain? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 18:07
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

 
I can't speak for Orcs, having never played one, but Dwarves are really under-appreciated in Illy. The Stalwart is the best unit for clearing forest, mountain, and building squares (which happen to be where a large amount of combat seems to occur). The Dwarves also have the best siege engines and the best thieves. For those three reasons, they are a strong race to play...

Nice perspectives Kumo. I have never played a dwarf and I covet Stalwarts. They are almost as strong as cavalry. But i feel it takes a lot of tactics to play well with a dwarf. For one, infantry is poorly pitted against archers on any terrain, while they do not have any overwhelming advantage over pikes (similar to what cavalry has against archers). Moreover, the best unit to break pike defence is archers, not infantry. Pikeman has very low defence against archers. 

Dwarves have the best siege, but orcs and elves are still better at defending the camp. The greatest disadvantage of dwarves is perhaps their poor cavalry. Cavalry is the king in the game, and the default option when you need to produce more firepower in a short time. It takes a lot of ingenuity to play a dwarf well, though I have no doubt the dwarves in Illy certainly have that.

The only race I think has a real edge over the rest are the elves. They are just too good at cavalry and archers, and even better at magic - with no flip sides at all. (a little less carrying capacity for thieves and a perhaps heavy penalty for saboteurs?).


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 18:13
Originally posted by SugarFree SugarFree wrote:

i thought the dorfs are still the best to attack whatever on mountains? 
or is there something better to clear a siege camp of trueshots on a mountain? 

Longbows have a defense of 32 against infantry while 20 against cavalry - same line for crossbowmen and death dealers. Trueshots have a defense of 34 against swords and 25 against cavalry. Infantry is not a great choice over cavalry to attack archers. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 19:24
Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

The only race I think has a real edge over the rest are the elves. They are just too good at cavalry and archers, and even better at magic - with no flip sides at all. (a little less carrying capacity for thieves and a perhaps heavy penalty for saboteurs?).
Elves have one huge disadvantage: economy-crushing dependence on chainmail.  That's why it's worth so much more than everything else on the market other than saddles (upon which everyone is equally dependent and constrained).
"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2012 at 19:41
How much chainmaille do TrueShots take to train?

Ohhh that's right... it's none. Big smile

Quote is there something better to clear a siege camp of trueshots on a mountain?

Yes - it's more TrueShots.
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