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05MAR19 - Overall Score Changes

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hucbold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 05MAR19 - Overall Score Changes
    Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 20:37
Very good - that's exactly equivalent to my suggestion!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Stormcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 19:59
Hi everyone,

Please see this post regarding Overall Score, and feel free to comment or make alternate proposals.

Regards,

SC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thirion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 13:43
Originally posted by Cesena Cesena wrote:

Yes, there are different playing styles. But the amount of work to earn your points must be comparible to any other category contributions.

I completely agree.

Originally posted by Cesena Cesena wrote:

Making cristals is very easy done.

Yes, creating crystals is easy. Getting a lot of magic points with it is quite hard. Before crystals people could use spells with added mana to get Magic points which is A LOT easier as you can get millions of magic points with 4 clicks - with crystals you have to create thousands of crystals to get a similar amount.

Looking at other categories there are a lot of ways to get "easy" points. Trading and Hunting is way easier. Quests, Diplo and Building are kind of comparable to Crystals in my opinion. And well, tech / defense is limited by other factors (although you could probably get defense points quite easy too - need to do some tests some day).

With quests you have to spend a long time doing quests every day for a few minutes. With Crystals you (probably) have to spend a similar amount of time but you can do it in a few days if you want to.

My Point: Making points with crystals is ok and not easy or broken, the amount of points you get is currently too high (half that amound would probably be fine).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cesena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 12:47
The idea of Hucbold isn't that bad, but you could use an overall percentage to get the overall standings. That way you can give every category the same weighting and you can calculate the corresponding points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cesena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 12:33
Yes, there are different playing styles. But the amount of work to earn your points must be comparible to any other category contributions. Making cristals is very easy done. The only restriction is the time that limits the quantity.

And because this is a new phenomenon some are playing it to the extreme in a category that did not grow very fast, because it wasn't fully developed. So big scores will have big influences in the beginning. But I think the effect was multiplied by the poorly balanced allocation of points.

Edited by Cesena - 07 Mar 2019 at 12:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thirion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 11:20
Originally posted by BayNights BayNights wrote:

Thank you for the explanation Thirion. I think this is a perfect case of the type of behaviors the devs should not reward/incentivize in Illy - it doesn't do much to enhance the community and rankings become meaningless.

I disagree. What people did was getting points - and for some players thats their way of playing the game. If you put up more (or a lot more) work than others you should get more points than the others. Rankings are still an indicator of how much work you put up - that was always the same and never changed. Everybody can get an almost infinite amount of Magic points if you put up the time, same with all other categories (if you trade/hunt a lot you get a lot of Trade/Attack points, ...).

In my opinion the only problem was/is that the points you get for Lesser Mana Crystals are to high compared to other ways of getting Magic points. This increased the speed people got points by a lot - otherwise the Score increase would have been a lot slower (comparable to the other categories).

But well, the Devs implemented the points you get for Lesser Mana Crystals and i see no reason not to use it. If a game developer adds a powerful weapon to a game that everybody can use why shouldn't you use it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BayNights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 07:35
Thank you for the explanation Thirion. I think this is a perfect case of the type of behaviors the devs should not reward/incentivize in Illy - it doesn't do much to enhance the community and rankings become meaningless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thirion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2019 at 00:40
Originally posted by Eagle Eagle wrote:

...

I'll try to explain how the ranking system currently works and what happened in december. 

How the score is calculated can be found at http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/25aug11-overall-ranking-and-score_topic2314.html - i am assuming that these formulas are still in use.

The score is calculated by multiplying the overall score with the sum of all category contributions which are calculated by "your points" / "points of rank 1 player". Lets assume we only have 2 scoring categories, Magic and Building. Your total score would be calculated by overall score * ( "your magic points" / "Thirions magic points" + "your build points" / "Quentins build points"). This means that the Rank you have in a category doesn't matter and just the points you and the rank 1 player has matters. In addition if the rank 1 player grows faster than you then you might lose total score even though you are gaining category points.

What happened december. Before december snot was rank 1 in magic with around 500m magic points. Before december mana limited the amount of magic points you could get (because at some point you ran out). With the december update and crystals this changed.

1) Lesser Crystal give A LOT more points per mana compared to old methods (Lesser Mana Fusion gives 110 points per Mana, Adding mana to spells give 0.5 points/mana)
2) With buying Greater Mana Crystals and using them you never run out of mana - thus you can gain almost indefinite amount of magic points.

Using this method Shagoury gained 1250m magic points in one week. Later on i got to around 1900m magic points. What does this mean for your total score? Lets assume you had 200m magic score in december and now. Before december magic contributed 200/500 = 2/5 = 4/10 of total score. After Shagoury magic contributed 200/1250 = 1/6 of total score and now it is 200/1900 = 1/10 of total score. This means you lost probably 20% of your score in a week and another 10% later on.

The score system is usually ok because players do not gain points too fast, thus players do not lose (many) points. The problem was that the Magic points of Rank 1 doubled in a week, and quadrupelt in a month - thus all players lost a lot of points and the rankings got shuffled around.

And by the way, earning magic ranking points is possible but takes a lot of time/work and is annoying/boring (similar to quests). I think i spent 3 days just creating Crystals for 10h (while watching Netflix). It is kind of an infinite amount of quests.


Edited by Thirion - 07 Mar 2019 at 00:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smilee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2019 at 18:29
Suggestion: Composite z scores.

Per category: z_cat = (player_points - average_points) / variance_category

Then add up the eight z_cats per player and sort them from largest (#1) to smallest (#lowest).

If you want to weigh the categories, use factors in the sum. What those weights should be I don't know, but don't base them on the total sum of scores or the same problem might happen again. *Maybe* weighting by the variance within the categories can work because the variance is mean-insensitive, but I'm not betting on that.




Edited by smilee - 06 Mar 2019 at 18:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2019 at 17:55
I appreciate everyone's input and comments and formula's.  I'm afraid I'm not smart enough to figure this out.

All I know is that after maintenance or something early December 27th my ranking started dropping like crazy within 24 hours.  I dropped from around 51st to 71 then later down to 79.  Someone mentioned magic issues.  I have been using magic for example on my own cities and adding mana after exo's.  I was ranked 29th in magic on Dec. 26th and still ranked 26th in magic.

My diplo, research, trade, quest and even building scores have gone up a lot since Dec. 26th.  My attack, magic, and defense have stayed about the same.   However my over-all rankings have not.   I'm pretty high now in all 8 categories so something appears to be wrong with them.

What the issue is I can't say.  I hope someone smarter than me can figure this out.  I play a lot to boost my score for fun.   This is still a sand-box game and having a high score suits my competitive personality.  I know several others who enjoy the competition of trying to get to the top 10, top 20, or even top 50 as in my case.

I realize you rolled back the new fix from yesterday but hope you figure out what is up and can fix it to be fair and where I don't have to keep passing people I've already passed again.

Thanks for your help on this!  :)
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