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Sov basic rentability

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glumetzul View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 May 2018 at 08:17
Hey!

I've read some Sov guides and even claimed one square so I can view the results in practical terms. Yet I still wonder how it would be best to approach this aspect of the game and the existing guides (understandably) only give general advice, not something tailored to each player.

So let's say I have a default 5 food city and I claim sov on one of the closest squares that is also a default 5 food spot. If I have maxed out my Farmyards it would mean I have a total production of 2014*5 = 10070. So basically each percent of production increase means an extra 100 food.

So if my lv 1 sov square costs me 100 gold and I build a lv 1 Farmstead, I gain 100 food for it. And food can be converted into gold by a 1:1 ratio which means I earn nothing and lose only the research points that are also consumed by the square. And upgrading the level of the sov only multiplies the gains and costs but in the end I still don't have almost anything to gain. Claiming sov on squares that are further away will obviously decrease the benefits even more.

Now, if I made a mistake somewhere in this, please correct me, it wouldn't be the first time.

If I made no mistake, then this would mean that sov squares are rentable in the following situations:
1. If they provide an extra square bonus that balances out the cost based on personal strategy.
2. If the numbers of food spots, either in the city or in the square is higher than 5 so either the percent is higher than 1% per level or that 1% actually translates into more than 100 of the respective resource.
3. If I use that square to boost some advanced resource or troops which I dearly need at that time and accept the gold losses for that. Perhaps if the speed increase means additional advanced resources that I can convert into more gold than it costs me through player trade.

So all things considered, in my position, and during peacetime, I should just build Sov, accept the loss in research points so I can convert them to advanced resource / troops boosting squares during war. And then maximize if possible the default bonus on the square by building advanced production buildings in it. Do I get it right?
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glumetzul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glumetzul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 08:36
I made some further math involving advanced resources building. I happen to have squares "encouraging" sword production around my cities so I used that as an example.

A sword costs 92 basic resources to make and seems to be safely sord ad 315 gold in Centrum. Considering there are also taxes involved I decided to consider the profit from converting basic resources into swords to be 200 per unit. With a lv 20 blacksmith I produce 10 swords per hous so a basic profit of 2000 gold per hour if I were to sell them.

Now a sov Bladesmith at lv 1 will increase that rate by 5% so this would mean basically some 100 extra gold per hour. The same rate as in the example from the opening post with Farmstead. And this also adds an hourly upkeep of 600 basic resources so it's a lot worse overall. 

Even with a 3% square bonus to the bladesmith, it means I'd have 8% instead of 5% so instead of earning me 100 gold per hour it will earn me 160. But the upkeep will still be of 600 basic resources plus the 100 gold already eaten by the sov square itself. And further levels increase production by yet another 5% (or 8%) while doubling upkeep so it doesn't get any better.

This brings me to my original wondering of how can a sov square be rentable. Am I missing something or are they only meant to increase production of whatever resource / troop you really need at a cost that is usually higher than what you really get?

PS: I read that they are good for raising population because, with a lv 5 sov square I could get 500 extra food that I can convert to 500 extra gold so basically I earned 500 extra populatin with a loss only in research points. But I hope there is more to it than that.
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Blankit View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Blankit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 11:51
Hello,

As you noted, if your underlying tile is 7f and you have a close tile with 15 food dolmen, then you would get 3% bonus on your 7*2014. This comes out to 422.94. And with building, it can be converted to tax which will cover your loss easily once you hit populations of 10k or above.

About your adv res production problem, many people have raised this problem. The main problem with that kind of thinking is that most people can't ship all their stuff away to sell it. If you're located at 15 away from a common hub, then its better to take max sov on 2 rings and sell all the food that you produce at even 1 per food if you have to (usual price are 2/f).

People generally take sword or saddle sov because mature towns are almost always redlining. They have no building to do, and in many cases, they aren't taking insane sov.
---E ---E Now selling pitchforks at The Pitchfork -Emporium. ---E ---E
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Dungshoveleux View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 11:52
There is such a thing as taking the math too far.
To put it briefly, sov allows you to manufacture resources, troops, and diplomats more quickly.
In war, troop replacement is more important.
And..
In order to grow more than 9 cities, you need 233,550 population or 25,950 per city.  This requires flour mills, tax rate manipulation, geomancy spells,... and farm/fishery sov as that's the only way you'll get your population hgh enough.
Measuring anything purely in gold terms or research point terms is a mistake imho. Sure they are important but they are not the only thing.
HTH
Dung


Edited by Dungshoveleux - 17 May 2018 at 11:53
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spektor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote spektor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 12:57
Originally posted by Dungshoveleux Dungshoveleux wrote:

There is such a thing as taking the math too far.


Remove these evil words from my presence! LOL


Glumetzul, your main (possibly only) mistake is your 1:1 food for gold assumption. 1 extra food allows 1 extra citizen, each citizen can produce up to 4 gold, at 100% tax rate. So 1:4.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glumetzul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 14:16
Originally posted by spektor spektor wrote:

Glumetzul, your main (possibly only) mistake is your 1:1 food for gold assumption. 1 extra food allows 1 extra citizen, each citizen can produce up to 4 gold, at 100% tax rate. So 1:4.

See, I knew there was a possibility of something very obvious I was ignoring which is why in the end I decided to start this thread and risk exposing myself to ridicule :))

Indeed, taxation is something I haven't really toyed a lot with in this game but now that you mention it is a gamechanger. By changing taxation from 25% to 50%, that 1% of extra food, only means 75 instead of 100 but that extra 75 food means 150 extra gold instead of 100 so all of a sudden I have a goot 150% return of investement (if I ignore the lost research points).

Now that I think a bit, I think the default 25% taxation that every player starts with in illy seems like a bad choice by the developers. With 50% taxation you get 100% in gold increase and only 25% in resources decrease. I knowin the begining, resource production matters most but it's really easy for a player to ignore this feature, just leave it at the default and miss out on early opportunities for trading and sov.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glumetzul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 14:18
Originally posted by Dungshoveleux Dungshoveleux wrote:

To put it briefly, sov allows you to manufacture resources, troops, and diplomats more quickly. In war, troop replacement is more important.

Yes, as mentioned, I realise that there are circumstances, like war, when priorities change and having a positive balance of resource is secondary to having a high output of advanced resources and troops. 

I was just wondering how come I see so many players with many sov squares during peacetime while my math seemed to indicate that they aren't reliable. As I said, taxation really is a gamechanger on this aspect since it changes the parameteres I used in my calculations.
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glumetzul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote glumetzul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 14:20
Originally posted by Blankit Blankit wrote:

As you noted, if your underlying tile is 7f and you have a close tile with 15 food dolmen, then you would get 3% bonus on your 7*2014.
Thanks. Obviously 7 food towns or 15 food sov squares are both gamechanges in that aspect but it's not something easy to achieve without careful planning that I wasn't smart enough to perform a few months ago :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 15:25
When you see sov V claims, it's almost always food boosting. People use it to increase city size, or to offset the food production penalties of high taxes (used for gold generation). The sov II/III you will see is probably troop or item sov, depending on if the account is a military/tournament or supply account. For production, the basic resource consumption profile makes II and III more efficient.

Note that a military city might switch sov from military to farms in peacetime, and raise taxes to offset the gold cost of troop maintenance.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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