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Should we just play the game as it exists today?

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Poll Question: Should we just play the game as it exists today?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
10 [35.71%]
12 [42.86%]
1 [3.57%]
5 [17.86%]
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eowan the short View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 01:27
My experience with making things of my own in the game is that it is a lot of work for very little reward. Fine if you'll have fun doing it but once the fun stops, it essentially becomes like having a part time job.

That being said, if there had been an option for both, I would have picked it.
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Ruarc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ruarc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 09:46
tl;dr - The community is too inward looking. Even land claims are fundamentally focused on the internal player/alliance. That's not necessarily bad, but it is odd. A change might be helpful, but wanton destruction would be bad for the continuation of the game.
 
 
To my mind, all of this (this poll, the recent batch of suggestions) is approaching the problem the wrong way. I don't think that people play the game because of the specifics of the mechanics. I reckon people stick around because there are interesting goals to reach and stories to tell.
 
The odd thing about Illyriad is that most of those goals and stories are self-contained. Even land claims, for all the upset they've caused, are fundamentally inward looking. The friction they generated wasn't the outcome of any particular land claim (because who cares exactly if players can't settle in some place 99% of the playerbase had no intention of settling in anyway?), but rather a showdown between two competing ideologies. The problem is that the anti-land claimers side can't seem to be bothered enough to put up an effective response, the land-claimers seem to have limited interest in looking beyond their immediate borders, and the peanut gallery is content to continue their own self-contained goals and stories largely ignorant of the going's-on because 1) it doesn't affect them, and 2) nobody from either side is saying anything about the conflict, and 3) there's basically no drama.

Emerson's suggestion about an Illy-wide court of petitioners, flawed as it was, did look at forcing the community to engage more with each other. That's the sort of thinking that's needed to alter the self-contained mindset that dominates Illyriad today.
 
I'm not necessarily convinced that the current situation is bad. I think it very odd that a persistent strategy mmo is so clearly focused on self-contained goals and stories, but I suspect that it has helped the game survive. If anyone is thinking a change would be good remember that it's important not to over-correct. Replacing the existing paradigm with the wanton destruction typified in other (typically round-based) mmo strategy games would be a step in the wrong direction and lead to builder's, who I suspect are responsible for keeping Illy afloat financially, quitting or buying less prestige.
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Tink XX View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tink XX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 19:19
Ruarc I am not convinced by your argument that the changes being proposed here are inward looking. The argument that was brought up in the thread and has resonated with some of the responders was that the game is lacking in dynamics and we need to have more active players (which by necessity means that more of new players would play on).
It's simple really. The "warmongers" in this community are seeking to engage with other alliances through the game mechanics. That's why we set up land claims and the silversteel cartel and Thunderdome and play politics. Not because we care so much about our borders. Without more players the map is too sparse and these interactions don't happen. We are not advocating for changes that would lead to a much more destructive or aggressive PvP like more prestige bonuses or super powerful crafted gear. It's the interaction between players that makes the game dynamic. If everyone sits in their respective corner and farms gold and hunts NPCs, there is little interaction. If people build alliance and have disputes over territories or mines or special map landmarks, that's interaction.
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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 19:20
Ruarc, I have seen that kind of debate in many other games. People want more of a particular playstyle (their preferred style, of course), and so they propose radical changes to force the rest of the player base to engage in that particular way. I don't recall that ever working out. In Illyriad, we've heard many proposals for how players and alliances should be forced to trade and interact more, for example. I personally don't see the value in putting a gun to people's heads with new game mechanics to force any particular behaviors. One of the nice things about Illyriad is that you can still play a slow paced builder game with a socializing element, if you are really so inclined.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 19:30
Originally posted by Tink XX Tink XX wrote:

The "warmongers" in this community are seeking to engage with other alliances through the game mechanics. That's why we set up land claims and the silversteel cartel and Thunderdome and play politics. Not because we care so much about our borders.

I was with you until that last bit.

Having been previously ambushed by an organized group of attackers who built up nearby over the course of several months, I see the value to holding strangers' cities at arms length. There is a major difference between having 1.5 hours to respond to attacks, compared to 1.5 days. Also, it's just nice to have a clear patch of map with nothing but confed green, where you can place your cities without worrying about all these 10 square halos. To me, land claims are a great example of using meta-gaming to achieve something of actual value in the game.

I would put that in contrast to things that are interaction purely for interaction's sake.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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Tink XX View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tink XX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 20:06
Tenk, sure, there is strategic value to land claims in that it makes our alliance territory much more secure. I wanted to emphasize the external facing aspect of land claims. In the end it would be silly to obsess with self defense if nobody is motivated to attack you anyway.
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Ruarc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ruarc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 23:00
@Tink: 
 
It's possible I wasn't very clear. What I'm suggesting is that the game is lacking the typical political dynamic present in most other mmo titles because the community is fundamentally focused on internal goals - typically self-contained at the alliance or player level and these goals require limited interaction with other people. I don't see any suggestion that actually obliges an increase in interaction amongst the playerbase (with exception to Emerson's Court of Petitioners, which wasn't a good idea but would actually work towards fixing the problem - or what I reckon is the problem anyway).
 
I think it's pretty clear that the engagement you're speaking about isn't having the intended result. Land claims are, by necessity, inward-focused. They might extend, in practice, a little beyond their stated borders but as you say yourself - player density, especially in the BL, isn't sufficient to make that into a big enough issue to shake long-standing inward-focused mindsets. The Silversteel cartel can be similarly ignored by basically everyone without much difficulty. The same is true of the Thunderdome. Don't get me wrong, these are all interesting initiatives and I'm eagerly awaiting to see what comes next from the most active crowd in the game, but in a community which was more focused on external goals and engagement such actions would have generated far more interest than the half-hearted effort arrayed against SIN et al. The community hasn't responded energetically, and my argument is that's largely because the community has no reason to care. The mechanics, and the mindset which has developed around them, is inward-looking with self-contained goals and objectives that require little to no interaction with other players and there's - rightly but problematically - no mechanics nor appetite amongst active players to force or encourage that interaction.
 
@Ten Kulch:
 
I quite agree. As I said, I don't think the current situation is necessarily bad, and I certainly would be very cautious as to any suggestion which had the potential to over-correct (e.g. something like Emerson's Court of Petitioners). I do think though that if there is to be greater engagement then we're going to need to see something (either a mechanic or player-driven activity) that's more all-encompassing than what we've seen to date. What that might be I don't know. Also, it could well be that Illyriad's simply not the kind of game which has the same level of political interaction and intrigue that is so typical of other mmo strategy games and the majority of goals and objectives pursued by players will remain largely self-contained at either the player or alliance level.
 
--
 
That's my 0.02, YMMV, etc etc.
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Tink XX View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tink XX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 23:22
@Ruarc, thanks for clarifying, yeah I see what you're getting at. Illy used to have a lot more intrigue and politics and overall player activity than it currently has. There is no getting these old players back and I actually have no interest in forcing these inward-focused alliances to play in a different way.
I do believe that just having more players would make the game more vibrant. But perhaps you are right and it's just a different kind of game from what I wanted it to be. Maybe I've been playing for too long and it's time to move on.

Edited by Tink XX - 08 Apr 2018 at 23:22
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Ten Kulch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ten Kulch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 23:45
Originally posted by Ruarc Ruarc wrote:

What I'm suggesting is that the game is lacking the typical political dynamic present in most other mmo titles because the community is fundamentally focused on internal goals - typically self-contained at the alliance or player level and these goals require limited interaction with other people.

The community is focused on internal goals because there aren't any external goals. I have proclaimed that as a major deficit in Illyriad for years. It is perhaps the defining limiting factor on community competition.

Bulk rare materials are focused towards PvP equipment. Hunting materials can't really be controlled by anyone. The distribution of permanent valuable resources (rare herbs and rare minerals) is abundant and geographically diverse. The subset of useful materials--Iceheart, Ancient Oak, Spidertree Leaves, Giant Palm Leaves--is completely disconnected from the subset of limited resources that are possible to exclusively control (e.g. Silversteel, Amar Shards). The only material in both sets is Aterium, but the worldwide daily supply isn't useful for PvP, and the primary Arterium item is War Axes, which are almost completely destroyed when taking casualties. The other materials like Silversteel are crippled by a dependency on elemental salts, which are too rare and difficult to obtain to ever really be useful in large scale PvP.

TL;DR: the only rare substances that can be monopolized aren't worth controlling; the only rare substances worth controlling can't be effectively monopolized (due to abundance, dispersion, or being hunting byproducts).

Tournaments used to be the political currency of the realm. The server wars were partly fought over tournament dominance. Beyond that, there are no external points to control, and thus all community activity must be inward focused.
Check out my blog, Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote white willow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2018 at 01:30
This is a great game that could be better. Land claims are not a dev created or mechanic of the game and are not used to rank an alliance. Sov claims are the default ranking. Land claims become a disease that slowly kills an alliance. Clustering for support and defense is a good thing allowing others in ( without demands} allows for interaction, purging players from a recent claim hurts the growth of the game. if you close off a territory to expansion you also imprison your members who slowly atrophy from boredom. Then people start thinking of game cheating ways to keep inactive players. I am not arguing the right to do it. I am explaining the inevitable results of doing it.

This disease is spreading in elgea, as I write this.
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