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Saving Illyriad For All

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Broken Lands
Forum Description: For everything related to the Broken Lands Continent
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=7335
Printed Date: 18 Jun 2019 at 16:17
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Saving Illyriad For All
Posted By: Eradure
Subject: Saving Illyriad For All
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 21:02
Hello,

Please read all of this, even if you disagree with me.

 

Current events in the Broken Lands do not bode well for anyone. There have been orders put out by alliances ordering peaceful players to move all their cities from a land claim even if they were well established in the area long before any land claim was made.
Now, this isn't a post regarding the validity of land claims and their place in the game, there's plenty of other posts around for that.
The issue is with the nature in which players are being forced to move. It is, I believe, with a bullying mentality which is not necessary for the growth or success of the alliance forcing them to move. It is not necessary for a player to be forced out of an area when they were there already, pose no threat to the alliance, nor impede their progress. Lack of space, in my opinion, isn't a feasible reason for these actions when the BLs are known for their open spaces.

If they are impeding the progress of an alliance, for the sake of the person at the other end of the game, the minimum done should be to offer assistance to them moving. Rather than forcing them to move, from an area they may have spent several years in, with pure brute strength. 

It is important that these kinds of actions be quelled now, right as they are beginning to emerge, before they become the norm in Illyriad. Before it is your city under threat.

But what can be done? 

Help raise awareness of what is going on. That's the main purpose of this forum post. If this kind of behaviour is condoned now, then it risks becoming the norm. Illyriad would be reduced to a game predicated on bullying others or simply being bullied until you leave the game all together.

Illyriad is a game, let's keep it enjoyable to play for everyone.

This isn't an attempt to stop players enforcing land claims in a reasonable manner. That's a part of the gameplay. It's also not to stop players from ever being invaded. That's a part of the gameplay. It helps keep the game interesting.

This is an attempt to prevent that from going to the extreme. We have to try and remember that there's a person behind the username you're bullying into submission. That once a campaign like this is complete, all that's left is the carcass of a once great game, a few happy players, and a lot of abandoned accounts.

 

Right, well, I think that's all for now.
Cheers for reading




Replies:
Posted By: Celebrant
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 21:17
Clap


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 21:24
Please be specific about where this is happening, who is being exiled, and who is pushing them out. There are relatively few land claims, so this cannot be a global phenomenon.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Eradure
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 21:30
It is not a global phenomenon, however it risks becoming one. As I said, if this is allowed to become the norm then it is an issue for everyone.


Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 22:13
My sympathy for the logical argument in favor of more PvP to help grow the game is waning and I would think similar open-minded individuals may lean towards a status quo if the treatment experienced by FAM is an example of the PvP movement.

An empire can persist with other players within your territory.  Illyriad can, and should, be a game with a PvP component but at the same time the larger economic machine must be fed by the productive farmers who desire nothing more than hunting, working the market, and interacting with the content added by the developers of the game (they also, in many cases, contribute positively to the social aspect of our time spent in the game).  One would think having such players/citizens distributed around the map would make for better markets and be encouraged by alliances looking to establish an empire, which one may consider synonymous with a land claim.

I think this is where the land claim idea lacks further application across the map, it is the lack of developing a rational model of how to deal with existing cities and defeated enemies.  In a game where, even with prestige, the progress of cities and population is generally slow going, the demands of exodus or reset to the newbie ring are extreme but still used when more reasonable alternatives exist.  

Once a claim is made, and can be enforced, then the claiming alliance can, and should, have some say regarding who can expand within the territory.  They also should impose their will when it comes to controlling the rare resources in their claim, and in general rare resources should be a point of regular, but not necessarily server-wide, conflict.

My fear is the momentum towards the PvP change may be lost when players are attacked without communication, server-wide prohibition on markets are declared, and when such actions are promoted as reasonable it is hard to convince others to your cause and push them into an alternative which may be nearly as unattractive (its like I'm reliving the 2016 election all over again).

We want people to remain in the game.  We want to play alongside military winners and losers that continue without permanent grudges and souring actions among the community.  Lets find that balance to encourage a reasonable and growing Illy community.


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Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2017 at 22:34
I can only speak for Elgea. We (Tcol) consider our landclaim to be absolute. In accordance with that view, we reserve the right to remove any and all cities that are not green from MM (regardless of how long they have been there). We have not attacked anyone without communication, and have displayed willingness to work with anyone who volunteers to leave peacefully. 

I do not believe that our actions will cause anyone to abandon unless they are already strongly contemplating to do so based on their own reasons. I do believe that taking strategic actions in a sandbox game engages the player base, keeps them active, and ultimately helps in maintaining a healthy and entertaining experience for the majority of the community.


Posted By: Levy
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 03:53
There are alliances in BL who is does not enforces such behavior.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 04:35
If you are moaning about Loki just say it. We are getting any non SINdicate and friends players to move away from us. Most are inactive anyway. We will not have possible enemies close to us. We will help active players move with resources. People have known for a long time this was coming. There are more military minded active players than peaceful anyway so if you claim to want to save the game go kill some cities

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Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Princess Botchface
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 05:02
Originally posted by Eradure Eradure wrote:

It is not a global phenomenon, however it risks becoming one. As I said, if this is allowed to become the norm then it is an issue for everyone.

When all this first went down, the Anti-Claimers immediately started making all sorts of grandiose statements about bullying, totalitarianism, monopolization and just generally ruining Illy for all the poor precious farmvillyrians who just want to build in peace. Anti-claimers compared Claimers to school yard bullies and all sorts of nonsense along those lines. Ajqtrz wrote at least a dozen passionate yet trolly and fundamentally flawed treatises on the forums about this subject. GC was consumed by it for months, every argument and counter-argument you could possibly imagine was made for and against Land Claims over and over again. The dead horse has been beaten to death a million times already, you're two years too late.

What I learned from all that transpired back then is that at the end of the day, all that mattered was the blood spilled on the field of battle. If you feel so strongly about this, gold up, gear up, sov up, read Ten K's warmonger blog and come at us bro. 


Posted By: Mafro
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 06:06
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Please be specific about where this is happening, who is being exiled, and who is pushing them out. There are relatively few land claims, so this cannot be a global phenomenon.

I moved to Jurgor in the south of the BL about two years ago to breathe the free air. During that time I have welcomed all neighbors, provided resources to those that accepted them, and have otherwise been as neighborly as possible. That's as true for members of the SINdicate as for others. I've quietly been exploring the various aspects of the game little by little, as I am a parent and have an active work and family life and don't really have the time to commit to "winning" at this game.

About a week ago I was informed by snot that I might be a "troublemaker", that Loki would be watching me, and that I would be subject to regular visits by scouts and spies. I have nothing to hide, no nefarious schemes, so I said that was fine. No problem. Knock yourself out.

I was then informed that I better move all my cities or join Loki (or some Loki confed) or else I would likely be moved to the newb ring.

Now, the first time I saw Loki in Jurgor was two months ago when snot joined them, her 38th alliance move by my count.

Please understand, I play and support this game because it's chill and I find the complexity fun. In RL my days are spent taking orders from my boss, my woman, my offspring, etc. I'm not about to put my precious time and resources into a pastime that requires I take orders from anyone. I play and support this game because I find it fun. As soon as it's not fun, I'm going to take my interests elsewhere. As this is a game, I'm pretty sure that's true for all of us.

From what I can tell, SilverCrescentia felt the same. I don't know her backstory, but I do know that an active, independent player was threatened by Loki and simply chose to abandon a couple days ago rather than be forced to play a game she wasn't interested in playing. The same thing appears to be happening to coolpc, who I heard recently changed his name to LOKIkillingme. It's happening to the alliance Fam, the player fishergate (recently newb ringed), and, apparently, quite a few others.

I'm sure there's a better way for Loki's leadership to achieve their goals. Prove your dominance, show your strength to those who oppose you, but don't drive peaceful supporters of the game away or force them to play in a way they don't want to play...it's just ultimately not in your own best self interests.

So, Ten Kulch, there's your answer.

Neighborly Yours,

Mafro


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 07:02
Well, Loki plays by its own rules. Deal with the players directly involved. I live in Fellandire and thus speak for Fellandire. Any non SIN alligned players have known for a long time this was coming. Fam was offered our protection and help a long time ago and chose a different path. Now I am cleaning up Fellandire. There are many areas free of our influence. If you do not like us then move away from us and into areas safe from us. EE has done that. nCrow has done it. Get over your complaining and either move or kill us. From my side, you can write what you want in the forums complaining but it will not help. I never have and never will give a sh*t what want, I will do what I want. If you do not like it come and raze me out of the game.

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Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 13:41
I've been contacted by Ten Kulch via IGM and will keep the specifics private to the parties involved.  His reasoned and rational tone is worthy of of respect and is worthy of imitation.

Folks like those in FAM and many others in the southeastern quadrant of the BL pose no offensive threat to any other player in the game.  How can they not coexist with the SINdicate?  Is the goal to increase PvP activity and participation in the game or drive people from the game?  I'm not sure addition by subtraction is such a thing in this game.

Now alliances such as EE and (character)Crow may have the capacity, and safety working from afar, to be a thorn in the side and driving them from the heart of your claim may make sense, but FAM is not comparable in any way.


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Posted By: Hucbold
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 14:10
The difference between Ten Kulch's post and Gragnog's is marked and shows the divide and conquer approach of the SINdicate. Ten implicitly denies its happening and demands proof while Gragnog gives the game away. Those of us in BL, far from Fellandire, have been and are repeatedly subjected to the Gragnog approach without explanation, apology or reason. Ten Kulch is either ill-informed or another deliberate face of the sinner's propaganda.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 14:52
I think your bleating misses the point. It does not matter what you spew here. The dice has been cast. You will be forced out of my area. Scream and moan all you like. Try argue your point here all you like. The fact that you seem to know so much about Fam reinforces my resolve. We know you work together and before your plans could be formed we started to take action. You will not use those accounts to launch surprise attacks on us.

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Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 15:18
I'm not sure to which one of us Gragnog is talking...

My alt was in FAM Nov 2014 until July 2017.  Wartow joined FAM (Aug 2017) since leaving that major military threat known as MOON.  I joined Illy shortly after the closure of Lords of Ultima and continue to play Crown of the Gods with many FAM members.  This is how I know as much as I do about FAM.

I have no association with Hucbold or HATH's TEA effort.  I question that conglomeration as the solution to grievances being made known by FAM.  Neither do I hold Ten K's efforts to encourage the military aspect of the game as anything other than genuine.  He's posted in his blog much to orient those interested in playing the game in the style he promotes.  He also is not in control of all who are in the SINdicate and the unfortunate tone some set in the forum. 

I will continue to advocate for conquerors to coexist in their land claims with those are not military threats.  Forcing relocation, even if assisted, is not necessary and there are aspects of this game that should permit access to all regions of the map.   

Its a marketplace of ideas... you now know mine.


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Posted By: Jadefae
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 16:10
Originally posted by Mafro Mafro wrote:

Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Please be specific about where this is happening, who is being exiled, and who is pushing them out. There are relatively few land claims, so this cannot be a global phenomenon.

Please understand, I play and support this game because it's chill and I find the complexity fun. In RL my days are spent taking orders from my boss, my woman, my offspring, etc. I'm not about to put my precious time and resources into a pastime that requires I take orders from anyone. I play and support this game because I find it fun. As soon as it's not fun, I'm going to take my interests elsewhere. As this is a game, I'm pretty sure that's true for all of us.

From what I can tell, SilverCrescentia felt the same. I don't know her backstory, but I do know that an active, independent player was threatened by Loki and simply chose to abandon a couple days ago rather than be forced to play a game she wasn't interested in playing. The same thing appears to be happening to coolpc, who I heard recently changed his name to LOKIkillingme. It's happening to the alliance Fam, the player fishergate (recently newb ringed), and, apparently, quite a few others.

I'm sure there's a better way for Loki's leadership to achieve their goals. Prove your dominance, show your strength to those who oppose you, but don't drive peaceful supporters of the game away or force them to play in a way they don't want to play...it's just ultimately not in your own best self interests.

So, Ten Kulch, there's your answer.

Neighborly Yours,

Mafro


not the reason I abandoned Silv.  look at her history she moved from loki to know right before she abandoned....so who would have thretened her in that short length of time?
That is all


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 16:17
Originally posted by Hucbold Hucbold wrote:

Ten implicitly denies its happening and demands proof while Gragnog gives the game away. ... Ten Kulch is either ill-informed or another deliberate face of the sinner's propaganda.

This may come as a revelation to you, but I am not Gragnog's nanny. Loki isn't required to seek permission from 300, nor vice versa. We are comrades who collaborate on shared goals like defeating major opponents and maintaining the security of Fellandire. Grag doesn't tell us how to run our projects like Thunderdome or the EE-300 war, and we don't tell him how to conduct his business, either.

I have not been monitoring the tension between Loki and FAM. It doesn't have a direct effect on 300, so frankly it's none of my business. If that makes me ill informed, so be it. I don't have to agree with all of Loki's projects or even know about them. I respect their right to act unilaterally whenever it suits them, as long as it doesn't compromise 300 objectives, and vice versa.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Dessembrae
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 17:36
Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

I can only speak for Elgea. We (Tcol) consider our landclaim to be absolute. In accordance with that view, we reserve the right to remove any and all cities that are not green from MM (regardless of how long they have been there). We have not attacked anyone without communication, and have displayed willingness to work with anyone who volunteers to leave peacefully. 

I do not believe that our actions will cause anyone to abandon unless they are already strongly contemplating to do so based on their own reasons. I do believe that taking strategic actions in a sandbox game engages the player base, keeps them active, and ultimately helps in maintaining a healthy and entertaining experience for the majority of the community.


That is very funny, As far as I know the only attack you guys launched was at an AESIR player since they are all ready involved in another war, I am still waiting to see you guys strike some of those players in your land claim from large alliances that are not currently involved in anything and see what you got.
 No need for you to waste your time replying, just making an observation.


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 17:49
Originally posted by Dessembrae Dessembrae wrote:

Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

I can only speak for Elgea. We (Tcol) consider our landclaim to be absolute. In accordance with that view, we reserve the right to remove any and all cities that are not green from MM (regardless of how long they have been there). We have not attacked anyone without communication, and have displayed willingness to work with anyone who volunteers to leave peacefully. 

I do not believe that our actions will cause anyone to abandon unless they are already strongly contemplating to do so based on their own reasons. I do believe that taking strategic actions in a sandbox game engages the player base, keeps them active, and ultimately helps in maintaining a healthy and entertaining experience for the majority of the community.


That is very funny, As far as I know the only attack you guys launched was at an AESIR player since they are all ready involved in another war, I am still waiting to see you guys strike some of those players in your land claim from large alliances that are not currently involved in anything and see what you got.
 No need for you to waste your time replying, just making an observation.

"We reserve the right to remove any and all cities that are not green from MM"

We reserve the right to do so at our own leisure, and according to our own policies. Now quit stirring the pot without informing yourself first, Aga. It is unbecoming. 


Posted By: Zenorra
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 17:49
@Dessembrae

There was a lot of communication with the Aesir player as well as Hucbold prior to any action being taken. 

Grom was saying that we have been communicating with all yellow players within Mal Motsha and we are working with them on their move. There is a lot of things going on that doesn't involve sieging, and that does not show up in the Herald. You should not try to make observations that you know nothing about.


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Posted By: Hucbold
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 20:25
Originally posted by Zenorra Zenorra wrote:

@Dessembrae

There was a lot of communication with the Aesir player as well as Hucbold prior to any action being taken. 

Grom was saying that we have been communicating with all yellow players within Mal Motsha and we are working with them on their move. There is a lot of things going on that doesn't involve sieging, and that does not show up in the Herald. You should not try to make observations that you know nothing about.

Zenorra, you're a psycho. We agreed to move the player involved although there was no reason we had to and then you attacked him before he could do so. He had been there for years, was on agreeable terms with his neighbours, ws no threat to anybody and you're now complaining that he's attacking you back. It is illogical, unreasonable and will remain a bone of contention between us. 


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 21:09
Zenorra, Grom, and Lord Zeal have represented themselves well on these forums. I find it hard to believe a story where all three of them engage in "psycho" behavior unprovoked.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: The Reaper
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 21:55
The game mechanics are not going to change to suit your carebear needs. Now. Go suck it up butter cup.


Posted By: Zenorra
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 22:11
I have the mails that prove he refused to move from Mal Motsha, and that he had no idea you (Hucbold) volunteered him to move.

I was not complaining about his attacks, he can't hurt us with his pathetic little armies. He makes good practice and training for my members. 

"Bone of contention"?! Oh, woe is me.

"Psycho"?! Meh, okay. I've been called worse.


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Posted By: lordzeal
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 01:45
Psycho? I like being Psycho it's kinda fun. We send mails asking people to move, even offer to help them if they agreed but when someone refuses we will act and act we did.


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 10:25
I don't feel the need to defend every single operation conducted inside MM. But, since the idea is being presented that we actively chose to target a player already embroiled in a war, it seems prudent to make an exception in this case. 

As already stated, Tcol has approached all non-confederated players inside MM with the request to relocate to another location. There are typically three kinds of responses. 

1. The player does not read IGMs at all and no dialogue can be opened. They are removed.
2. The player expresses regret but a willingness to comply. A timetable and support are arranged. 
3. The player outright refuses to move or becomes hostile. Removed with extreme prejudice.

By far the majority of all players contacted fall in category 2. The specific case with the Aesir member in question was not so easily defined. Aesir leadership (Hucbold) promptly agreed to remove the cities. So promptly in fact that he forgot to consult the player to whom they belonged. The player was naturally frustrated and at first refused to move, then started parallel negotiations to those conducted (and finished) with his leadership. 

We were patient and well-willing in our dealings with this Aesir member, who offered all sorts of solutions. After a while, these negotiations, being devoid of any practical application, got the distinct feeling of being insincere and aimed at stalling more than at a shared desire to work out an amicable solution. At this point, the players 2 cities inside MM were removed, completely unopposed by Aesir (who had after all signed off on their removal from our territory). 

Nothing more is to be said about the case. It was not a deliberate targetting of a player at war, but rather an unfortunate case of miscommunication between an Aesir member and his leadership. One could argue that the ongoing war between Aesir and other alliances has put an unhealthy amount of stress on their leadership, and that somehow this stress has affected their ability to communicate clearly with their membership, but that contemplation would fall outside the scope of this topic. 

I will permit myself one personal note. @Huc - Despite the good humour with which she has taken the comment herself, I feel it is totally unacceptable to call Zenorra a psycho. She is, by far, a more competent (and stable) leader than you have shown yourself to be. 


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 18:47
Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

I don't feel the need to defend every single operation conducted inside MM.

You don't.

Most of the time explaining does no good anyway. The players making accusations here already know the history of particular situations, and have already decided to change, omit, or otherwise distort the facts.

Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

After a while, these negotiations, being devoid of any practical application, got the distinct feeling of being insincere and aimed at stalling more than at a shared desire to work out an amicable solution.

Been there, done that. Launched the sieges without regrets.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Benedetti
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 11:56
Gragnog has said all there needs to be said. Posts like this, and the Wolves and Sheep one, are useless as the server will not work together to stop him and others like him from doing what he is doing, nor will any kind of appeal to ethics help.

Gragnog attacked me way back when I had joined the Southern Kingdoms and he had just started LOKI. A player with 2 fully established accounts, his cities safely hidden away in SINs land claim vs me with 5 freshly exodused cities. Not really something I had to think about much or long. I didnt complain, I moved my cities back into elgea, and gave up on Illy. I have no interest in wasting my time gaming with people who take satisfaction from such asymetrical warfare.

I don't blame him, it's just not my kind of game. I don't fault Gragnog for doing what he's doing. We've had entertaining PCs at times. it's just not something I would do. It's a game, and the game allows him to do what he's doing. It just means Illy was no longer the game I was looking for, so I spend most of my gaming time (and $) elsewhere. It's not a problem.

I'm still here occasionally for the chat, a tournament, and to see how long it will take SIN to declare they've won the server. I have no doubts the server will end up fully militarized, and probably SINdicated, and that the game will loose much of it's non-military playerbase in the near future. There is no actual need for traders, farmers or gatherers in this game to support a military player. There is just nothing in the game that would hold this development back or that would motivate people strongly enough to change their ways and find an effective way to deal with LOKI and the rest of the SINdicate. Things change, that's the nature of life itself. (And, contrary to what I just said :D, the game is too old to expect far reaching changes from the devs). Moving on to a game that does suit you is far more rewarding then posting on Illy forums.

TK, you are not entirely honest when you say you are not a part of what LOKI does. Stuk and others have made it clear on several occasions that an attack on either LOKI, SIN, 300 etc will be seen as an attack on all (and I think you agree with that?), and if needed (which in itself is of course far from certain) other alliances in the SINdicate will step up. As such, you and 300 are a part of the intimidation and power projected by LOKI, and people who see LOKI as a problem rightly see you as part of that problem.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 14:09
Was not going to post in forum anymore but this is too juicy. Why let the truth get in the way of a good story. You forgot to mention why you were attacked. I guess being at war with us is no excuse for getting attacked. I appologise for attacking you while you were at war with us. The attacks stopped once your new alliance was settled. Loki did not attack you either. It was Kaggen who was in SIN. But then your version way better to get more support against us so I say well done.

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Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Benedetti
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 15:09
War? There was no war going on at that time Gragnog. Not with SKs and as I remember it not with Storm either. My towns were just south of SINs LC, if we'd been at war I would have been a lot more nervous and a lot less surprised at being attacked.

SKs had just split from Storm, I had stayed with Storm for the duration of a tournament, and then joined SKs. I have no idea why you attacked me, noone else in SKs was attacked. It doesn't really matter. It's not like the game requires war before allowing an attack. It was my choice to try to move into BL, and my choice to move out again.

I don't remember if you used Kaggen or Gragnog. I do know whichever account it was was in LOKI at that time. As I remember it both were in LOKI at the time but not 100% sure about that.

Again, I don't blame you for anything, I have no beef in all this, so I have no need to make any "story" any better.

PS raise support against you and co? That's not what I'm doing at all. I fully admit to your right to play this game as you want to play it. I'm not even sure the server getting militarized is a bad thing overall. It just means *I* personally am not interested in playing much, and that posts such as the original post are useless and won't change anything.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 17:08
Server never has and never will be militarized. Small pockets are, yet people still move there and then get all angry when their neighbours who are known to be warmongers attack them. Really? Is this game really so full of idiots? Get serious folks. If you really do not like conflict then doh, do not move to areas where you will find it. This does not take a genius to figure this out. We have been fighting and killing each other in and around Fellandire for years now. Lets stop the bullsh*t for a bit and drop the whining and moaning. If you peaceful players really wanted peace you would not be located near us. You only have yourselves to blame.

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Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 17:32
Originally posted by Benedetti Benedetti wrote:

TK, you are not entirely honest when you say you are not a part of what LOKI does. Stuk and others have made it clear on several occasions that an attack on either LOKI, SIN, 300 etc will be seen as an attack on all (and I think you agree with that?), and if needed (which in itself is of course far from certain) other alliances in the SINdicate will step up. As such, you and 300 are a part of the intimidation and power projected by LOKI, and people who see LOKI as a problem rightly see you as part of that problem.

Benedetti, that's not even how real world alliances work.

NATO is a framework of mutual defense. If one member is attacked, the others will respond. The allies do not dictate national policy to the other nations. The only exception is actions that affect either their national interest directly, or the alliance as a whole.

300 will fight for the players who will fight for us. That's especially true of good comrades who have fought beside us in the past. If that makes enemies hesitant to enter Fellandire and start a fight, then good, the confederation is having the desired effect. I have had occasional misgivings about actions taken by other SINdicate members, but those thoughts are expressed in private to the individuals involved. Unsympathetic as it might sound, I will always prefer to fight for the people who will fight for me, over a dozen strangers who would watch in silence as I burn.

-------------
Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Celebrant
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2017 at 08:16
NATO?

North Atlantic Terroristic Organisation
You meant that NATO?


Sometimes it's good to pause, say: It's enough!
Some players should rest.
Let them breathe.





Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2017 at 10:31
Hey! GMs, does talking about NATO and Terrorism count as a enough to shutdown a thread on rl political grounds? If not, let me know and I'll launch into a rant on Theresa May.


Posted By: Panacea
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 07:10
Regarding the initial post-

This may be just a game, but given the large amount of freedom given to individuals in this sandbox world, you have to expect the way things are handled to reflect the real word to a degree. In the real world, a vast majority of people could be easily thought of as farmville people - they do their own thing, have little ambition to harm others, and would rather exist in a place where peace and harmony triumph absolutely. Yet, it only takes a small number of people (relatively speaking) to mess things up for everyone else. Those people can, and often do, use propaganda, fear-mongering, and brute force to achieve their goals, disrupting the lives of anyone around them at whim. And they are often successful because 'farmvillers' dont tend to fight back until the war is already on their doorstep, less something else makes joining the fight profitable.

So, to that end, if you don't like the direction this virtual world is heading in, take it upon yourself to change it. At some point you have to decide how much these injustices mean to you. Will you continue to stay to yourself as long as you or your alliance is not currently the target? Will you just give up? Will you be content just talking about it? Will you burn? Or will you rise to the occasion?

Whether a game or reality, life presents adversity - the evils, the bad guys, the haters.

The solution should be obvious: the game needs Heroes. People to stand behind these righteous viewpoints and back them with blood, sweat and tears... ok, maybe just pixels.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Cerberus edit for forum rules, no politics and definitely no referring to other players and their tactics as "Nazi".


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 16:47
Originally posted by Panacea Panacea wrote:

Or will you rise to the occasion?

Maybe they will rise to the occasion like you, Panacea. They can make anonymous trolling posts on a forum, comparing people to Nazis for playing a video game involving troops. Your account was obviously created for anonymously badmouthing land claims. Is that what you consider rising to the occasion?

Originally posted by Panacea Panacea wrote:

Whether a game or reality, life presents adversity - the evils, the bad guys, the haters.

The solution should be obvious: the game needs Heroes. People to stand behind these righteous viewpoints and back them with blood, sweat and tears... ok, maybe just pixels.


If Heroes back their righteous viewpoints with pixelated blood, sweat, and tears, then I propose that the game has already found its heroes. We are the warriors actively opposing the toxic Elgean hegemony that has sabotaged tournaments, shoved new and small alliances to the periphery, and maintained a stranglehold over metagame politics. Do you see people rushing to defend that smug ogliarchy? I don't. Maybe the FarmVille players are stepping back because they realize the unelected rulers of Elgea have sucked the joy out of their FarmVille gameplay. You're trying to scare them into fighting by conjuring images of terrifying villains, but people aren't buying that story anymore. I think many of them are weary of a political scene where a few big spenders dominate a whole continent from a throne built of permasats.

Cerberus edit, editing out edited out quote.


Posted By: Celebrant
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 19:10


I guess it's a great feeling when you see yourself as a savior.




Posted By: Panacea
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 19:47
haha, oh my...

Well TenK, firstly, I'm only using this account because I lost the password to my other one, and apparently my main email is linked to this name that was created when i was first researching the game. It didnt really occur to me when writing this that people wouldn't know who i was, but it retrospect it should have. Though, your reply makes me wonder why anonymity offends you so much. Nothing I said here requires a verified source of origin to be true, so why does it bother you? Regardless, for the time i'll just move past your insults at me and address the actual point of my initial reply.


Youre assuming far too much. Sure, the initial post may have been directed towards the SINdicate, but my reply was not. In fact, I tried to take efforts to leave my reply generic enough so as not to directly implicate any one person or group, because - for the point I was trying to make - it's irrelevant. The sarcastic side of me would think that you took it as a shot at you because it described SINdicate tactics well. Though, the more practical side says you likely took it as a shot at you because you are just getting used to so many people trying to make you and your group out to be the evil bad guys and such. It seems to me that the part about "propaganda, fear-mongering, and brute force to achieve their goals, disrupting the lives of anyone around them at whim" fits with what SINdicate has accused the old Elgean alliances of, being one of the rallying cries used to recruit members to SINdicate to fight the evils that plague the game. At the same time, it also describes how many of those Elgeans feel about the SINdicate or the use of land claims. But, despite that, you chose to view it as an attack on you. I find that interesting.

So, for you, and for anyone else who cant see past their own perspective: being a good guy/Hero and being a bad guy/evil villian are 100% relative ideals. To vCrow, SIN was/is the bad guy. To SIN, vCrow was/is the bad guy. And so forth. People rarely see themselves as evil or wrong in their endeavors, so its natural for every side of a conflict to see themselves as the righteous Heroes. MY POINT was only that if these things bother someone so much, and one views it as wrong, injustice, or bad for the game, then that someone will likely have to take it farther than words to change things, much in the same way SINdicate has done. In a way, my reply was a complement for your group for doing exactly what I hope others will do - take action against something that bothers you.

As for me: no, it doesnt bother me enough to try and change it. I do not feel with any conviction of a 'right way' for this game to progress, and as such see no point in fighting half-heartedly. I can see the viewpoint of both sides (whether these current conflicts or ones of the past), each with their own merits and shortfalls. The extremes of any single play style seem damning to the game, though I am genuinely unsure which would end up worse in the long run if that style were to prevail. But that doesnt mean I wont chime in every now and then in hopes of motivating those who are unhappy to make efforts to change things.

Lastly, as far as the quote... Sure, the quote itself directly involves Nazis, but the concept being expressed spans far beyond that. I considered changing the wording to better reflect the game world ("When the Underworlders came for the Elves, I remained silent; I was not an Elf."), but even though it would still present the same overall meaning, it seemed a little insulting to the original quote, so I left it be hoping readers could look beyond the specifics of the event it described and see beyond to the greater message in which it describes. To assume I'm calling anyone here Nazis over gamestyle is absurd.


In the end though, if even after my explanation here you still choose to view it as some sort of slight against you or your group in specific, then there's not much I can do to change that. But that's ok, really. You are already doing what my post is meant to encourage others to do: Fight for what you believe in. Be a Hero. Be someone elses Villain.


Posted By: Rarknar
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 23:40
Read the first paragraph then scrolled down. I come to illyriad to get away from reading essays. I'm sure it was a great one though.

-------------
veni vidi vici


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 03:58
Panacea, you used anonymity to drop a real-life genocide reference in a video game dispute. Of course it offends me. It probably offended many reasonable people reading this thread. I could easily ask the reverse--if you aren't afraid to own that statement, why maintain anonymity?

My description of Heroes was hyperbole. As long as our adversaries insist on portraying us as villains, and themselves as the opposing heroes, I think it's reasonable to employ the same propaganda tactics. Both sides have legitimate complaints, and both have used some disagreeable tactics. I would be quite content if people admitted that this sandbox includes elements of conflict, particularly for the apex alliances, and just got on with it.

-------------
Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Corwin
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 07:13
panacea, the best known version of the poem (according to wikipedia) you quoted does not contain the word nazi's, although the "they" does refere to them.  you were the one adding that offensive word. don't act surprised peolple are offended when an anonymous account calls them nazis. it is low anyway, but 
doing it anonymous makes it really sad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ ...


Posted By: Celebrant
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 08:31
Guys and girls you need a rest.
Few weeks should be enough.

As much as you are trying to hide the facts, Illyriad is a credible copy of the real world.
Get used to it, and restrain the ego, this violence may look more beautiful.
Even if you add some flowers to your spears and swords, history may compare you to some great warriors.




Posted By: Fiona
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 09:17
Celebrant, are you ok? Do you even know what your saying? Maybe a few weeks rest would do you some good.

Cheers
Fiona


Posted By: Panacea
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 09:55
... do either of you understand the meaning behind that quote, beyond the specific scope of WWII? Or do you just see the word Nazi and assume someone is being compared to or accused of being one without taking any time or effort to understand whats being presented in its fullness?

It talks about the basic human tendency to allow things individuals consider to be injustices to continue unchallenged as long as the threat itself is not directly effecting them personally.

To continue to try and twist this into me accusing, or even comparing, players here to Nazis is ridiculous. The topic I was addressing is people willing to see perceived injustices and allow them to continue unchecked only until the problem is in their face. The comparisons, or relativity, to this forum post and the quote presented was with the speaker of the quote, not the adversaries he was facing.

So, while I'm sure its more fun to keep trolling the subject and trying to gear it back to some sort of Nazi debate, its not, and never was.

And Corwin - youre right, that wiki page does list it first. Had I gotten the quote from that page, i'd have been more than fine using it devoid of the word Nazi. But I got it from the wiki page about the author of the quote ( https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller ), which cites the version I used first as the original version, translated from German. There is also a few other versions listed below, including the one you mentioned. Youre probably right though, the version you mentioned would have been better fit for this audience. But, in either case, none of the versions of that quote support the argument that my words were accusing or comparing anyone here to Nazis.

TenK - No, I didnt use "anonymity to drop a real-life genocide reference in a video game dispute". Thats just what youre are accusing me of. I quoted a man speaking of humanities tendencies to ignore their values when a threat isnt directly effecting them. That the threat being referenced in his quote happened to be Nazis was only secondary, happenstance, and could be switched with any other perceived evil/villain/adversary and still held the same meaning. But you are choosing to view it otherwise, diligent in ignoring context, rationality, or explanation.


All in all, I probably should have excluded the quote completely though. Sadly, not because its not a relevant comparison, and not because its some sort of accusation towards players here being Nazis - I should have omitted it because I should well know by now that the vast majority of people arent capable of reading something with intentions to understand it. Instead you'd rather pick a single word out of multiple paragraphs, add your own wild interpretations unsupported by the text, and then use your new found nonsense to wage a verbal war based on absurdity until any trace of the original meaning is lost to obscurity.





Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 10:28
Panacea, 
The people before have been quite liberal in labelling myself in particular all sorts of names.  Did it bother me? No. 
Only when those same people started to complain when I fired back did I get annoyed. The people before you have ruined anything you will have to say on this topic. 
I saw the meaning in your post, though to make it much easier, I have not gone after people one by one, I am actively engaging them all at once. Your point is moot. 


Posted By: Corwin
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 10:35
Panacea, I know you're not accusing anyone of being a nazi, or making a comparison to ww2. My point was that the term nazi is considered as negative by (almost) everyone. If you had replaced it with retards, assholes or any other bad name it would have had the same result. You turned to namecalling from your anonymity. And saying it's a quote is no excuse. You could easily let the namecalling out of it, and the point of the quote would have been the same.

Don't be surprised people feel offended when you choose to use offensive words. 

If I get it right you're saying people don't dare to step up as long as "it" doesn't concern them, and if I get it right, you feel like they should because "it" could happen to them to, sooner or later. If you really feel that way, then step up and out of anonymity. 
I think you're right when you're saying people should not complain about landclaims while they don't do anything about it. Not sure if you're saying that though. 


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 16:08
Originally posted by Celebrant Celebrant wrote:

As much as you are trying to hide the facts, Illyriad is a credible copy of the real world.



-------------
Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 16:09
So has the game been saved yet for all?  Asking for a friend...

-------------


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 17:29
Originally posted by Celebrant Celebrant wrote:


As much as you are trying to hide the facts, Illyriad is a credible copy of the real world.
Get used to it, and restrain the ego, this violence may look more beautiful.



ShockedShockedShocked

Just wondering if the devs should post this masterpiece quote as a shiny example of user feedback...

On that note, time to send my thieves to Starbucks, even though my couch doesn't know how to quit generating gold.




Posted By: Celebrant
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 17:46
Originally posted by Fiona Fiona wrote:

Celebrant, are you ok? Do you even know what your saying? Maybe a few weeks rest would do you some good.

Cheers
Fiona


I love you


http://https://www.rosesonly.com.au/Skin/RosesOnly/Images/Products/850,850/WowHundredsofRosesArrangement.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.rosesonly.com.au/Skin/RosesOnly/Images/Products/850,850/WowHundredsofRosesArrangement.jpg










Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 18:15
Originally posted by Celebrant Celebrant wrote:

As much as you are trying to hide the facts, Illyriad is a credible copy of the real world.

Good. Then I assume no-one who lives inside the borders of a sovereign state will voice any further objection to landclaims. 


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 18:36
Well played, Grom.

-------------
Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Fiona
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 20:05
Awwe thank you Celebrant. 
Still think you need time off.
FYI I have no clue what this post is about, I just saw Celebrants reply, felt I needed to respond. 
Cheers
Fi Embarrassed


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 05:08
Originally posted by Tink XX Tink XX wrote:

Originally posted by Celebrant Celebrant wrote:


... Illyriad is a credible copy of the real world.

Just wondering if the devs should post this masterpiece quote as a shiny example of user feedback...

Crikey...!

I mean, we do put quite a lot of effort into it - but anyone who's ever submitted a petition knows that we don't get it done in seven days, if you know what I mean.

SC


Posted By: viperone
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 07:33
Waits for the Bitter Sea to part


Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 11:28
7 days?
I know a bloke who did it in 6 days and had a kip on the 7th day (beat that!).



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