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Kaggen/Gragnog/Ukkonen/Soturi *CLOSED*

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=7314
Printed Date: 18 Jun 2019 at 16:07
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Kaggen/Gragnog/Ukkonen/Soturi *CLOSED*
Posted By: Spartacus
Subject: Kaggen/Gragnog/Ukkonen/Soturi *CLOSED*
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 14:59
Occasionally in this game you notice things. For the last couple of weeks, Kaggen has been attacking me with pretty weak cav attacks. Usually they were about 5k knights. The ward of destruction would take care of 250 of them and then it was a matter of ducking or mounting an elite defence with pikes, reinforced plate, extra heavy armour, nimble horse, whatever was handy from surrounding towns. Kaggen was getting a kill ration of between .28 and .75. We wondered why he kept kamikazeing his troops. Eventually, he runs out of troops in two cities and suddenly he is sieged by Ukkonen, an EE player who unlike his colleagues is not exodusing his cities from BL. The cities fall almost immediately with no increase in Kaggen's defence score and the desired buildings demolished rather than destroyed. Now Kaggen has fewer towns and two are left safely with Ukkonen - in an alliance with lots of confeds and very few enemies. It is well known that Kaggen is Gragnog's alt and Soturi is Ukkonen's alt. The terms gold farm, permasat and multiaccounting come to mind but I must quickly dismiss them as these are all honourable men.




Replies:
Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 15:43
Well you *fuzzy kitten*. Stop whining and ask me. Yes I have given 2 cities to Ukkonen. People have known I was giving him some cities. You were a good victim to blow the troops on as we will be razing you totally into the noob ring. You will see more of my cities going to other folks as well but I suspect you might abandon before all is said and done. Ask around and you will find it is common knowledge that I am in the process of getting rid of Kaggen. I will not be at all surprised to see Ukkonen attack you as well now. Any idiot with half a brain would look at his history and would see he was part of SIN a while ago thus he is not our enemy.

Cerberus Edit for Forum Rules.


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 16:23
Forum rules ban among other things: 
  • "    abuse, harassment and name-calling
"you *fuzzy kitten*", *Cerberus has taken care of this*

Cerberus edit for Forum Rules.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 16:44
I appologise if you are offended. I suggest you appologise to Ukkonen for calling him a cheat. The blade cuts both ways. My forum war with you is over. I will continue this ingame.

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Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 19:24
While Gragnog/Kaggen was posting above, his friend Jejune was posting in a parallel thread in which he lists the alliances with which the SINdicate are at war. These include Aesir and EE. Kaggen admits that Ukkonen is a friend of SIN and actually threatens that Ukkonen will attack me - which will be difficult from an alliance with which we are confederated. So he is simultaneously attempting to speak for Ukkonen and calling him a spy. I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I presented facts (clear from the growth charts of the individuals involved) and expressed some skepticism about what was going on.


Posted By: The Reaper
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 19:50
Sounds like a lot of whining because your group is getting annihilated to me. And you are looking to cast blame by bringing the information of sats about. Fact is people sit people, those rights can be reset. If the devs found something sketchy it's one thing. This is just wa wa poor me, we're getting thrashed so lets change the topic to affect the opponent who's slaughtering us. 


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 20:31
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Sounds like a lot of whining because your group is getting annihilated to me. And you are looking to cast blame by bringing the information of sats about. Fact is people sit people, those rights can be reset. If the devs found something sketchy it's one thing. This is just wa wa poor me, we're getting thrashed so lets change the topic to affect the opponent who's slaughtering us. 

You havn't heard a single whine from me. I am pointing out to people what is going on so that they can watch out for other instances. It is my thesis, clearly stated, that these people are terrorists within the game and if the game doesn't like it, the game can gather together and address it by not allowing these people to hide. Terrorism is difficult to defeat. Your ad hominem non responsive approach is a typical tactic. Answer the argument, question the facts by all means but don't drag the process into the gutter.


Posted By: Stukahh
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 20:48
Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Sounds like a lot of whining because your group is getting annihilated to me. And you are looking to cast blame by bringing the information of sats about. Fact is people sit people, those rights can be reset. If the devs found something sketchy it's one thing. This is just wa wa poor me, we're getting thrashed so lets change the topic to affect the opponent who's slaughtering us. 

You havn't heard a single whine from me. I am pointing out to people what is going on so that they can watch out for other instances. It is my thesis, clearly stated, that these people are terrorists within the game and if the game doesn't like it, the game can gather together and address it by not allowing these people to hide. Terrorism is difficult to defeat. Your ad hominem non responsive approach is a typical tactic. Answer the argument, question the facts by all means but don't drag the process into the gutter.

GM Cerb, can you please shut this thread down?  

Spartacus (Hucbold) cannot beat us on the battlefield and has decided to slander and call some of us terrorists.   This is just ridiculous and embarrassing rhetoric from an alliance leader of a top 10 ranked alliance.

Stukahh


-------------
I don't always drink. But when I do, I prefer the blood of my enemies.


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 21:10
Originally posted by Stukahh Stukahh wrote:

Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

Sounds like a lot of whining because your group is getting annihilated to me. And you are looking to cast blame by bringing the information of sats about. Fact is people sit people, those rights can be reset. If the devs found something sketchy it's one thing. This is just wa wa poor me, we're getting thrashed so lets change the topic to affect the opponent who's slaughtering us. 

You havn't heard a single whine from me. I am pointing out to people what is going on so that they can watch out for other instances. It is my thesis, clearly stated, that these people are terrorists within the game and if the game doesn't like it, the game can gather together and address it by not allowing these people to hide. Terrorism is difficult to defeat. Your ad hominem non responsive approach is a typical tactic. Answer the argument, question the facts by all means but don't drag the process into the gutter.

GM Cerb, can you please shut this thread down?  

Spartacus (Hucbold) cannot beat us on the battlefield and has decided to slander and call some of us terrorists.   This is just ridiculous and embarrassing rhetoric from an alliance leader of a top 10 ranked alliance.

Stukahh

Again a complete failure to address any of the points made. 

The rules of the game allow them to be terrorists and for me to call them out as such. That's what's happening here and what the war is about.


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 22:12
As a leader of the alliance warring with EE, I will clarify our position on Ukkonnen.

Strategically, we felt it was unnecessary to attack Ukkonnen, as he is an old comrade who seems very unlikely to plot against us. Tactically, you don't harass a large cavalry account when all his cities are surrounded by plains, and he can strike your cities on two hours notice. Politically, you don't turn a friend into an enemy by telling him what alliances he must quit upon your forceful demands.

Let sleeping dogs lie.

-------------
Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Fiona
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 23:29
Isn't this post slander. It should be removed. Spartacus/Hucbold owes an apology to the parties involved.


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 00:01
Originally posted by Fiona Fiona wrote:

Isn't this post slander. It should be removed. Spartacus/Hucbold owes an apology to the parties involved.

Technically it would be libel, not slander.

Libel and/or slander are not outlawed in the rules of Illy.

My post outlines a series of verifiable facts and leaves the reader to draw whatever conclusions they like. No conclusions are provided. In fact Gragnog's reply confirms all the facts provided. Other peoples conclusions from those facts does not put those words in my mouth.


Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 00:36
I find your continued use of the word terrorist deeply offensive, Hucbold. I think it's much more serious than calling someone a moron.

You're not going to convince anyone to help you that way.


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 00:48
Originally posted by Nokigon Nokigon wrote:

I find your continued use of the word terrorist deeply offensive, Hucbold. I think it's much more serious than calling someone a moron.

You're not going to convince anyone to help you that way.

.... then they should stop terrorising people. 

Dictionary.com

noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.


Posted By: Whakomatic
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 05:57
Spartacus/Hucbold

Standing on the steps of the forum to rally support against your opponents is diplomacy.
Rhetoric to paint your foes in a bad light is politics.
Smashing their armies and razing their cities is warfare.

All of these (and more) are an accepted part of the game world.

However, casual accusations of "terrorist" -- a word that has real and terrible meaning to a great number of people -- is naive and inflammatory. It shows a profound failure of judgment.

Accusing these same opponents of cheating and violating game policy then falling back to "but, but, they are the bad guys (i.e. terrorists)" when confronted with an explanation that contradicts your assertion does not inspire confidence in your agenda nor your play style.




Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 08:34
Originally posted by Whakomatic Whakomatic wrote:

Spartacus/Hucbold

Standing on the steps of the forum to rally support against your opponents is diplomacy.
Rhetoric to paint your foes in a bad light is politics.
Smashing their armies and razing their cities is warfare.

All of these (and more) are an accepted part of the game world.

However, casual accusations of "terrorist" -- a word that has real and terrible meaning to a great number of people -- is naive and inflammatory. It shows a profound failure of judgment.

Accusing these same opponents of cheating and violating game policy then falling back to "but, but, they are the bad guys (i.e. terrorists)" when confronted with an explanation that contradicts your assertion does not inspire confidence in your agenda nor your play style.



Let's get this straight. I have no idea what these guys do in real life. For all I know, one of them might be the Pope. My accusation is that in the game, they play the role of terrorists - clearly they do. Read the OP. There is no accusation of cheating - just an outline of facts that is subsequently confirmed by Gragnog. They are upset because I am casting light on 'their business' and are trying to get it removed so that the 'muggles' won't see the way they work. You are doing your bit in their cause by trying to drown the issue under indignation and invective. 


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 09:27
You dont want to play the finger pointing game. 

Hucbold/Bivin/Aviddriver/The Peacekeeper

Hey avid, hope things are going well for you. Just thought I would let you know that I am being forced to crush aesir. 
let me know where you are hiding out these days 
[9/14/2017 2:02:40 PM] Zach H****: i dont know whats going on man I haven't played in like 6 months
[9/14/2017 2:08:59 PM] Brad J***: All good mate hope you are doing well 
[9/14/2017 2:09:18 PM] Zach H***: yea I am bud just fixing to go to bed
[9/14/2017 2:09:26 PM] Zach H***: been playing other games
[9/14/2017 2:09:31 PM] Zach H***: destiny and eso
[9/14/2017 2:10:15 PM] Brad J***: Well no real updates in illy so you are not missing much 

Cerberus edit for Forum Rules.


Posted By: Rarknar
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 11:36
I would argue that they are not terrorists but conquers and warmongers. The do not hide in the shadows and send suicide bombers out to cause come damage but stay concealed. No, they simply step on the neck of the opposition and grind them into the dirt. Since my time in illy I have watched them grind 3 #1 alliances down to almost nothing along with many other smaller wars. All This in plain view of the illy public. No they are the "bad" guys and have been doing this for years. If you guys wanted to stop them, should have done it years ago.

Rarknar

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veni vidi vici


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 12:37
When Broken Lands opened, we moved here and founded an empire of warriors. Now, we are making moves against other kingdoms and empires, making allies with the strong, controlling valuable resources, exerting influence over continents. Terrorists? Just because you fear someone doesn't automatically make them a terrorist. We are the British, the Romans, the Mongols. Our tactics are the tactics of mighty empires from the ancient Greeks to the Normans.

Usurpers, warmongers, conquerors? Yes.

Terrorists? No.

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Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 13:44
Since when has being a terrorist involved hiding in the shadows? Are we forgetting current events with IS making a caliphate and all that stuff?

To be honest, if we start applying real life values then both sides have a certain war crimey feel to them. Personally, I'd keep away from stuff like that on the forums simply because it seems like the sort of thing which could potentially result in a forum ban regardless of accuracy.  

But, if we start applying real life meanings and values to illyriad with things like what a terrorist is then why not include things like the geneva convention?

Name: Eowan
Rank: Supreme Carrot Thrower, Commander of the Carebears and Captain of the 3rd Mechanised Tardigrade Brigade.
Number: 316663




Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 14:22
I repeat the definition of what a terrorist is:

noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

So you are terrorists - as were many of the conquerors of the past that you list. There was nothing noble or admirable about empires that slashed their ways through history. I think the term you are confusing with terrorism is 'guerrilla warfare'.  I have also used the terms 'bully' and 'criminal'. I stand by them.

You are at variance with the sand-box consensus that used to hold sway in Illyria and hopefully will again. I and others intend to reestablish peaceful harmony in Illyria. You are within the rules of the sand-box to resist. I will continue to turn the light on the ways that you play your game


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 14:24
Originally posted by eowan the short eowan the short wrote:


But, if we start applying real life meanings and values to illyriad with things like what a terrorist is then why not include things like the geneva convention?


Read a bit more. I did.


Posted By: Rarknar
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 15:15
i feel terrible now that i know i have sided with terrorists. I am sure many people will now rally to your side now that everyone knows they are terrorists. Down with the terrorists!

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veni vidi vici


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 18:58
Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

I repeat the definition of what a terrorist is:

noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

That definition is absurdly broad. From the top Google search result for "terrorist definition": 1. a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Our warfare is not unlawful. Your opinion is not the law here, and it never will be. There is no central authority in Illyriad with the legitimate means to declare these actions unlawful. Further, this is a game of alliances, armies, and geography. Pursuing strategies involving any or all of those factors is implied in the very game design. Finally, you are not "civilians". I have seen the armies maintained by the alliances in question. There is no credible claim to being non-combatants. You aren't civilians, you are simply outclassed on the battlefield. That isn't even close to equivalent.

-------------
Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2017 at 00:36
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

I repeat the definition of what a terrorist is:

noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

That definition is absurdly broad. From the top Google search result for "terrorist definition": 1. a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Our warfare is not unlawful. Your opinion is not the law here, and it never will be. There is no central authority in Illyriad with the legitimate means to declare these actions unlawful. Further, this is a game of alliances, armies, and geography. Pursuing strategies involving any or all of those factors is implied in the very game design. Finally, you are not "civilians". I have seen the armies maintained by the alliances in question. There is no credible claim to being non-combatants. You aren't civilians, you are simply outclassed on the battlefield. That isn't even close to equivalent.

Once again you don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between what the game allows and what is moral. My description of you as a terrorist, criminal and a bully is not less valid that the descriptions that come from your side of the argument of 'muggles' or 'farmville players'. Within my moral code you are all the thing I have described and it is a view shared by a large number of people - the people who watch what is going on and keep a low profile for fear of being terrorised. I am not accusing you of cheating or of any real world actions or crimes. I am saying that within the game, you play the role of terrorists.

Alliances like Aesir have members of many different types. Some are military, some are not - like when a country in RL goes to war, not all its citizens are combatants. Illy actually gives you scores so it is easy to distinguish. It is not a one purpose, regimented alliance like yours. Its members have different philosophies and viewpoints and while we may have declared war on Ta2in, we did not start the war and we have not declared war on all the people who are attacking us, unprovoked, yet. Up to the point of our declaration, we were civilians.

However the purpose of this thread was to point one of the ways that your lot work - specifically, Kaggen hiding cities in a peaceful alliance while he disposes of Kaggen, then presumably abandoning Kaggen and starting Orkaggen and getting his cities back - you know like a deposit and withdrawal from a bank - plus interest. Educating the uninitiated was my purpose and from my standpoint, this thread has been a great success with multiple insights provided to illuminate the darkness.


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2017 at 01:11
Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:


Alliances like Aesir have members of many different types. Some are military, some are not - like when a country in RL goes to war, not all its citizens are combatants. Illy actually gives you scores so it is easy to distinguish. It is not a one purpose, regimented alliance like yours. Its members have different philosophies and viewpoints and while we may have declared war on Ta2in, we did not start the war and we have not declared war on all the people who are attacking us, unprovoked, yet. Up to the point of our declaration, we were civilians.



Yes, you did start this war. Kenyl was the first person to attack our forces from Aesir while we had a siege on Lagavulin. In retaliation we sieged and razed Forda Beer. 

The preceding attacks you offered as proof of hostilities earlier from July were between you guys and Josh while you were fighting over LOst A cities. 

You struck first, we hit back, we just hit a lot harder than you. You have tried to save face by declaring. If you were so concerned about your members instead of trying to get your hands on a mine, you would have left it alone. As such, your members at present are wearing the brunt of your decision to enter into this fray. you are not even using your troops but sending Aviddrivers and Peacekeepers troops out. 

You did the declaration and Kenyl did the attacking. Review your combat API's. 

Othello will lose 5 cities over the next couple of days, whoever the brains trust is that told him to exo his towns 1 sq away from our first round of sieges needs to get their head examined. 

Any chance of a surrender is gone. Your inflammatory comments have assured that for you and your allies. 




Posted By: Small Boy
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2017 at 09:08
LOL @ "Fuzzy Kitten". GM Cerb rocks.


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2017 at 09:10
Originally posted by Malek Malek wrote:

Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:


Alliances like Aesir have members of many different types. Some are military, some are not - like when a country in RL goes to war, not all its citizens are combatants. Illy actually gives you scores so it is easy to distinguish. It is not a one purpose, regimented alliance like yours. Its members have different philosophies and viewpoints and while we may have declared war on Ta2in, we did not start the war and we have not declared war on all the people who are attacking us, unprovoked, yet. Up to the point of our declaration, we were civilians.



Yes, you did start this war. Kenyl was the first person to attack our forces from Aesir while we had a siege on Lagavulin. In retaliation we sieged and razed Forda Beer. 

The preceding attacks you offered as proof of hostilities earlier from July were between you guys and Josh while you were fighting over LOst A cities. 

You struck first, we hit back, we just hit a lot harder than you. You have tried to save face by declaring. If you were so concerned about your members instead of trying to get your hands on a mine, you would have left it alone. As such, your members at present are wearing the brunt of your decision to enter into this fray. you are not even using your troops but sending Aviddrivers and Peacekeepers troops out. 

You did the declaration and Kenyl did the attacking. Review your combat API's. 

Othello will lose 5 cities over the next couple of days, whoever the brains trust is that told him to exo his towns 1 sq away from our first round of sieges needs to get their head examined. 

Any chance of a surrender is gone. Your inflammatory comments have assured that for you and your allies. 



What a load of self serving twaddle. Even taking your account of events, which is very incomplete, you regard us as the aggressor for clearing a siege on one of our confeds? We were honour bound to do so. In reality, the attacks by the SINdicate on us started several months before that and AGAIN, we did NOT start it. Look at the overall tone of your message - we did not cooperate with your bullying therefore you are going to punish us - terrorism.




Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 01:25
This had nothing to do with you, you chose to get involved. Don't go crying like a little girl when you intentionally put your alliance in front of me. Using the monniker terrorism is just your pathetic way of trying to get out of the corner you have put yourself in and try to shift the focus away from your stupid actions. You asked for a dog pile, you did not get it. 

You cannot justify an honour bound to help your confeds, that is a the biggest load of crap i have read, have you looked at when you became confeds with mcrow? This was after I started launching at them, and on that note, if you are so "honour bound" as you quite clearly put it, where were your "honour bound" armies when vcrow was attacked by SIN, where were your "honour bound" armies when SHARK was attacked by SIN? Where were your "honour bound" armies when EE was declared on by a 5 person alliance? They were non existent, and if you look at your diplomacy screen, it shows quite clearly the dates involved, and these confeds have been in place for a very long time, not just a recent one in the case of Mcrow. 

You keep making stories up where everything I put out can be clearly backed up with api and other ingame notifictions like diplo pages, and to continue to sell the rubbish that you type, you just keep going on with the one thing, terrorism, and that is because you are trying to justify your existence as leader to your alliance so you can continue your hapless and pathetic crusade. 

You are worse than Pico, and he was an expert at throwing people under the bus. 




Posted By: robmc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 02:39
Whatever it's a game. If you think for one minute anyone cares about you and your friends dying, your wrong. At the end of the day if you couldn't fight them militarily, you should have just let them take what they wanted. Now not only are they talking what they want, but the are making you look like a little girl while they do it. Politics never work in real life, why would they work in illy? Muggles.       


Posted By: Princess Botchface
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 07:02
The forums has only ever been a useful tool for digging your own grave. No matter how many times it happens, people keep doing it. 




Posted By: Celebrant
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 12:10
When a person lacks human attention, he is looking for it everywhere. Loneliness is the most common feature of players in this game. This is a community, you can not, you military-oriented, take it for yourself. Greed, anger and anger have never been part of any community. They shall not survived here either.
Try, at least a week, to play against the game, not against the player.
Give peace a chance

Thank You for attention Smile


Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 12:13
greed anger and anger? Not the double anger! 
Also, woop! Attention rocks! You're paying attention to me right now by reading this! WOOHOO!
Some of you might even confirm you gave me that attention by replying to this in order to then gather attention for yourself! *I like floppy eared bunnies*

GM Cerberus edit for forum rules.


Posted By: Captain Kindly
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 13:24
Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

Within my moral code you are all the thing I have described and it is a view shared by a large number of people - the people who watch what is going on and keep a low profile for fear of being terrorised. 

Have you actually talked to 'these people'? Because I'm getting an 'everybody knows' or 'of course this is true' vibe in this thread.

*Edit - Politics not acceptable*

GM Cerberus edit for forum rules.


Posted By: Corwin
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 15:47
willem oltmans?


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 21:58
Originally posted by Corwin Corwin wrote:

willem oltmans?

"An erudite orator, the straightforward and uncompromising Oltmans was a striking character in Dutch society". (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Oltmans" rel="nofollow - wikipedia )

Umm okay, maybe uncompromising.


Posted By: Corwin
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 22:28
Originally posted by Tink XX Tink XX wrote:

Originally posted by Corwin Corwin wrote:

willem oltmans?

"An erudite orator, the straightforward and uncompromising Oltmans was a striking character in Dutch society". (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Oltmans" rel="nofollow - wikipedia )

Umm okay, maybe uncompromising.

CKs post is almost copy paste from interview with oltmans


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 22:33
Ah, thought your response was in reference to "what do you consider yourself?" question in CK's post. Embarrassed


Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 22:49
The problem with all these real-life analogies is that they way overstate the case. Hucbold is using a very short dictionary definition without context, taking a page out of AJ's playbook. Underlying these definitions are scenarios that are truly tragic and cause real pain, which for some reason the definitions fail to capture. The only kind of hurt we Illy warmongers cause is http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/butthurt" rel="nofollow - butthurt , and that is only limited to this game and your own emotional attitude to the things that happen in-game.


Posted By: GM Cerberus
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 04:54
This topic is now closed due to the over-inflammatory nature of the post and all the mudslinging.  I'm fine with disputes on the forums, just keep down the salt and the toxicity.



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