Print Page | Close Window

How can this be fair?

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Strategies, Guides & Help
Forum Name: General Questions
Forum Description: If your gameplay question isn't answered in the help files, please post it here.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=7304
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 19:35
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: How can this be fair?
Posted By: Faydwen
Subject: How can this be fair?
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 03:41
Hello folks!

Okay, so a bit of history here: I joined the game some 8 months ago or so. Presently I have 6 towns with a total population of 23,000 and some change. Nothing spectacular for sure. But I have worked hard for my gains.

I joined a "training" alliance called the Screaming Valkeries back in January in hopes to learn the game a bit more. Unfortunately, it wasn't much of a training alliance, though they did answer questions, it wasn't a structured experience, and didn't provide a lot of information forthright.

Along comes September, and with it, Hurricane Irma. I was forced to evacuate my home as I was in a mandatory evacuation zone. During the time that I was away. Which has been the entire month now, the alliance Aesir declares war on TA2IN.

My alliance SV, apparently also declared against them, though I did not see it in the news section before I left. The one I did see though was SIN declaring war against SV.

When I was able to touch a computer again these past couple days I come back to find that I have one huge army sitting outside of my town Qeynos which houses half of my 20k population for my entire account. Quickly I began asking around, and they suggest I leave the alliance, so I did.

But that has not helped anything since SIN is now claiming a "PPP" policy, which basically means they persue you anyway. I asked for peace 7 different times in private messages, and in global chat and all of them were refused. Flustered and frustrated with what I perceive as bullying a newer or vastly weaker player I got angry and called them out on their atrocious ways on global chat. People kept telling me to use IGM. but being new I thought that meant in game message, which I had assumed I had already done through private message.


Well, so I was wrong, and I sent an in game mail once i learned of the error and still they make ridiculous demands for peace against someone that has nothing to do with, nor wants anything to do with, the war they are presently involved with.

They want access to my account through "sitting" rights, and half of my entire progress in the game for nothing. I have never taken a hostile action be it militarily, diplomatically, magically, nor comercially against a single active player in my entire time playing the game.

I would happily fight if I was fighting an equally, or even a 10k population higher player, but I am being assaulted by 8 people, the smallest of which has magnitudes more power than I do.

So I ask yall, is this the game? How are new players supposed to stand a chance if they get wiped out just as they finally start getting towns in the 9k and 10k population range? I have two towns with any population to speak of. Kelethin and Qeynos.

Anyway, their terms of surrender were that I give them sitting rights to my account and lose half of my progress in the game. How is it not against the rules to demand access to someone's account?




Replies:
Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 03:51
Your alliance declared war. You, as a soldier, have been targeted. You don't need to have taken any hostile action, because declaring war says it all.

Had you just politely mailed the enemy and asked for a surrender, they probably would have let you off easy. Instead, you made a giant drama fest in GC and now here. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

-------------
Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 03:53
Listen, I dont know how many times you have to be told. This has nothing to do with the hurricane. This has to do with your stupid actions in GC upon your return. 

You went out of your way to make a scene, you could not apporoach me or jejune on the side like Gwendalynn did you had to make a scene for yourself. 

You were out there telling everyone that people will help you, I guess they turned you down, or you were lying in the first place. 

On behalf of the sindicate, the deal that was in place is now off the cards. Reap what you sow. 


Posted By: Bulani
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 03:55
I would start your complaints with the alliances who involved you in a conflict you never wanted. There are consequences to actions and you got caught up. Sucks, but it happens. Have you asked SV or Aesir to defend you? They seem to be very confident in their abilities. 


Posted By: Faydwen
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 04:01
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Your alliance declared war. You, as a soldier, have been targeted. You don't need to have taken any hostile action, because declaring war says it all.

Had you just politely mailed the enemy and asked for a surrender, they probably would have let you off easy. Instead, you made a giant drama fest in GC and now here. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.


Hey there, thank you for your response!

I did infact politely ask them what was going on when I returned to the game, and they insisted on continuing the fight. As I mentioned in my post above. When I learned what people meant when they said IGM, I did indeed send a game mail, which I copied into a google doc for everyone to read.

I did reach out in private messages politely at first, and frustratedly later on. As I mentioned in my lengthy post above.



Posted By: Faydwen
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 04:03
Originally posted by Malek Malek wrote:

Listen, I dont know how many times you have to be told. This has nothing to do with the hurricane. This has to do with your stupid actions in GC upon your return. 

You went out of your way to make a scene, you could not apporoach me or jejune on the side like Gwendalynn did you had to make a scene for yourself. 

You were out there telling everyone that people will help you, I guess they turned you down, or you were lying in the first place. 

On behalf of the sindicate, the deal that was in place is now off the cards. Reap what you sow. 


Hello there Malek. I did indeed approach you in global chat peacefully at first when people suggested your name. I then sent private messages to the armies enroute.

I mention the hurricane only because I was not here as a result of it, and thus unaware of anything that was going on in game. I bring it now to the forums because you and your confederation have made outrageous peace demands. Denying my offer of gold and trade goods.


Posted By: Lyken
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 04:04
In the past Illyriad, players in your situation would be taken in and protected by a third party, usually without penalty. Today's Illyriad is proving to be a different game it seems. All those who might've once stood up for you are either too inactive to care, or too worried about painting a target on themselves. I'd offer to speak on your behalf, but I'm already a target, and doubt they would deign to be reasonable or respectful.

I should say that any player attempting to wrest control of your account via sitting rights should not be allowed. I don't care how benign they believe it to be, that transcends the bounds of normal game mechanics, and should be viewed as harassment, just as coercion of prestige would be. 'Buy me 60GBP of prestige or else' and 'give me (limited, but meaningful) access to your account or else' both have RL implications. While the former goes without saying, the latter means being forced off your account for a period of time, and incidentally gives them access to any prestige items you might have accrued.


-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/123034" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Faydwen
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 04:04
Originally posted by Bulani Bulani wrote:

I would start your complaints with the alliances who involved you in a conflict you never wanted. There are consequences to actions and you got caught up. Sucks, but it happens. Have you asked SV or Aesir to defend you? They seem to be very confident in their abilities. 


I agree fully! I wish I had known this was in the plans, I would have dropped out before that happened. I have spoken to Aesir members and I tried to reach out to the last remaining SV member. I have not received a response from the latter yet.


Posted By: Faydwen
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 04:09
Originally posted by Lyken Lyken wrote:

In the past Illyriad, players in your situation would be taken in and protected by a third party, usually without penalty. Today's Illyriad is proving to be a different game it seems. All those who might've once stood up for you are either too inactive to care, or too worried about painting a target on themselves. I'd offer to speak on your behalf, but I'm already a target, and doubt they would deign to be reasonable or respectful.

I should say that any player attempting to wrest control of your account via sitting rights should not be allowed. I don't care how benign they believe it to be, that transcends the bounds of normal game mechanics, and should be viewed as harassment, just as coercion of prestige would be. 'Buy me 60GBP of prestige or else' and 'give me (limited, but meaningful) access to your account or else' both have RL implications. While the former goes without saying, the latter means being forced off your account for a period of time, and incidentally gives them access to any prestige items you might have accrued.


Exactly! Them asking for sitting rights is beyond reasonable. This is one of the reasons I have brought it to the forums. That can't be within the rules of the game can it?


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 04:36
Originally posted by Lyken Lyken wrote:

In the past Illyriad, players in your situation would be taken in and protected by a third party, usually without penalty. Today's Illyriad is proving to be a different game it seems. All those who might've once stood up for you are either too inactive to care, or too worried about painting a target on themselves. I'd offer to speak on your behalf, but I'm already a target, and doubt they would deign to be reasonable or respectful.



Thats exactly right, which is what I had to do for gwendalynn after she quit aesir and your own alliance mate hucbold who declared the war and probably did so from SV and changed it to I am Spartacus, decided to attack gwen for leaving. I had to arrange protection for her. 

Its irrelevant that it was a feint, how was I or gwen to know that when he sent the troops, its the fact he sent it in the first place, let alone the traitor medal he gave her. 


This all starts and ends with you Lyken, this is the havoc you are and cocbold are leaving in your wake. You could have made this all go away, you chose not to and are happy to throw as many people in front of you as you can, like faydwen. 




Posted By: Lyken
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 04:48
Originally posted by Malek Malek wrote:

...

This all starts and ends with you Lyken, this is the havoc you are and cocbold are leaving in your wake. You could have made this all go away, you chose not to and are happy to throw as many people in front of you as you can, like faydwen. 


Feel free to spin it however suits your needs, Malek. A man isn't to blame for defending his home, even if those who seek to wrest it from him take to torching the rest of the city around it.


-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/123034" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Sister Nikki
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 04:51
Personally I do not believe anyone would help in the old Illyriad times, a player who's her alliance declared war on another and after complaining about the war. Case closed for me.




Posted By: Faydwen
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 05:05
Originally posted by Sister Nikki Sister Nikki wrote:

Personally I do not believe anyone would help in the old Illyriad times, a player who's her alliance declared war on another and after complaining about the war. Case closed for me.




Who has also requested peace multiple times in multiple ways, and stated repeatedly that she wants no part in this conflict, had nothing to do with it, and wasn't even present or even able to be present during the beginning of the hostilities, or plans for hostilities.

Their only response for terms of surrender are seen in the google document. All offers of gold and trade goods were ignored when offered in global and private chats. Including an offer of gold in the mail chain that is linked.

Instead they want access to my account as a term of surrender which I am rather certain is indeed a violation of the rules somewhere. I can't think of a single other online game that has ever permitted people demanding account access of others in pvp situations.

I have asked the GMs for clarification on this fact.


Posted By: Stukahh
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 05:21
Faydwen you are in violation of the Code of Conduct 

Forum rule 5

"Public posting of private messages between fellow players or players and Illyriad staff is prohibited. This includes discussions of warnings and suspensions of both game and forum accounts."

Perhaps you should review the Code of Conduct prior to accusing SIN of violating it.  No one is forcing you to do anything.  Account sitting as per terms of surrender has been going on for years in Illyriad.  

If you do not want to agree to the terms then a "no" is suffice.  We will continue our military campaign against your account.  

Last time I checked "not being fair" was not listed in the CoC violations

We are free use all of the game mechanics at our disposal to engage with you.

Stukahh


-------------
I don't always drink. But when I do, I prefer the blood of my enemies.


Posted By: Eresh
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 05:25
I think you're missing the cause and effect chain of events here Faydwen. Now I wasn't around much the last few days so I could be missing parts of it, but this is what I see... 

1 - Hucbold decided to endanger his entire alliance and everyone willing to help him by declaring war on TA2IN knowing there was no chance to win it or even survive it. He did this on behalf of a player that was only in his alliance a very short time that he recruited knowing the player was already mid-conflict with TA2IN over a useless silversteel mine his pride was unable to give up.
2 - Your alliance, a supposed training alliance?! decided to jump in with Hucbold and declared war on TA2IN knowing there was no chance to win it or even survive it.
3 - You decided you didn't want to be part of this war and left your alliance. Logical action in my opinion. But not knowing you had to officially surrender and meet terms, you just left silently and got sieged anyways.
4 - You tried to get people to recall the sieges and were told no. You tried to justify that you weren't allowed to be sieged due to weather and 8 month old status (btw, it's been 9 months and I'm only 4 days older than you in game). The people you messaged weren't interested in reasons on why they weren't allowed to siege you.
5 - You lost your sh*t and went to global chat and raised a fuss. This right here, is where you went wrong. In a scenario where you're already in trouble, don't make it worse on purpose by antagonizing your attackers. 
6 - After aggravating everyone in TA2IN, you decided to officially surrender. Of course the surrender terms are harsh now that you've raised a fuss. The harsher surrender terms aren't due to you being a noob (you're not, 9 months old is not a noob), nor are they due to the weather, nor due to who declared when you weren't around to agree or disagree. The harsher surrender terms are due to the antagonizing things you said in global chat.
7 - Instead of apologizing and having a level headed discussion with whoever gave you those harsh surrender terms about where you went wrong and how you've finally realized the error of your ways, you're now back to global chat and the forums to bitch some more. 

I think it's time to put your pride aside and try some good ole fashioned humility. Maybe it'll work, maybe not. What have you got to lose?

Additionally, I can't see any reason why asking for sitter is against the rules. Hacking your account and taking sitter would be against the rules. Stalking you onto facebook and threatening your grandma unless you give sitter would be against the rules. Saying you'll only be allowed to surrender after losing 1 city and giving sitter temporarily to view your mailbox is not something outside the scope of a sandbox game. You have 100% control over agreeing or not. Me personally, I would not give an enemy sitter rights on my account. Then again, I wouldn't be in your shoes in the first place.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 05:28
I am guessing asking for sitter rights is to ensure compliance to surrender terms. I have seen many people surrender and then ignore terms. As a sitter they can then control terms such as troop disbanding, diplo disbanding, sov cancelling, gold and resource stocks. Again it is your right to accept or deny the terms. Thus if the idea bothers you of someone sitting your account refuse. I am guessing that is the reply you will get from the devs as well.


-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Dak
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 06:24
I felt the process to surrendering was pretty straightforward. In game message the alliance leader that you're at war with and state that you want no part in this war and surrender. Where you went wrong was making a scene in global chat. That should've been handled privately. 

I left the alliance because I wanted no part in this war. Ample time to leave should've been given to allow members to leave before declaring war. I also didn't like how attacks were sent at a member for surrendering. 


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 09:05
People should read the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of non-combatents in war. These guys claim that they are improving Illy by playing a military 'aesthetic'. They are not - its a bully, terrorist aesthetic they're playing. People are leaving not joining. Congratulations to Faydwen for making a stand. The usual chorus of people have piled on with the usual tripe - 'we told you we'd smash you if you showed the slightest spunk and now we're going to do so'. People are leaving in droves.

Time to wake up people. Don't walk away in silence. If you are going to leave , attack first.

I AM SPARTACUS



Posted By: Celebrant
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 09:22
This game slowly, but surely,  in front of the developers becomes polygon for bullying Sleepy


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 09:30
Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

People should read the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of non-combatents in war. These guys claim that they are improving Illy by playing a military 'aesthetic'. They are not - its a bully, terrorist aesthetic they're playing. People are leaving not joining. Congratulations to Faydwen for making a stand. The usual chorus of people have piled on with the usual tripe - 'we told you we'd smash you if you showed the slightest spunk and now we're going to do so'. People are leaving in droves.

Time to wake up people. Don't walk away in silence. If you are going to leave , attack first.

I AM SPARTACUS


Coming from the bloke that attacks one of his own players for surrendering and was a non combatant. Nice job hypocrite. 


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 09:32
Originally posted by Dak Dak wrote:

I felt the process to surrendering was pretty straightforward. In game message the alliance leader that you're at war with and state that you want no part in this war and surrender. Where you went wrong was making a scene in global chat. That should've been handled privately. 

I left the alliance because I wanted no part in this war. Ample time to leave should've been given to allow members to leave before declaring war. I also didn't like how attacks were sent at a member for surrendering. 

This is what should have happened. You chose not to. 


Posted By: Faydwen
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 09:38
Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

People should read the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of non-combatents in war. These guys claim that they are improving Illy by playing a military 'aesthetic'. They are not - its a bully, terrorist aesthetic they're playing. People are leaving not joining. Congratulations to Faydwen for making a stand. The usual chorus of people have piled on with the usual tripe - 'we told you we'd smash you if you showed the slightest spunk and now we're going to do so'. People are leaving in droves.

Time to wake up people. Don't walk away in silence. If you are going to leave , attack first.

I AM SPARTACUS



There's absolutely no hope of my towns being able to defend against their onslaught. They are attacking me with multiple people, all of whom are attacking with multiple armies. All of whom each have at least one town, if not more, that have more population than my entire collection of 6 put together.

At this point they are simply actively trying to remove me from the game simply because there's no challenge for them to do so.

As I mentioned before I did request, multiple times in global chat, and in private messages for peace. I wanted no part of the conflict, and had nothing to do with it to begin with. I wasn't even able to touch a computer while the hostilities were created. Which is the whole reason I mention the hurricane to begin with Malek. Not sure why you can't understand that fact.

In my eyes taking it to the point that they are doing is indeed removing yet another person from the game. Who will certainly not be recommending that her friends play it as well.

I joined the game knowing full well there would be combat. There's a difference though between fighting a good fight, enjoying the encounter, winning or losing, and a tank rolling over a church mouse trapped in a mouse trap.

Newer players like myself are the life blood of any online game. When you start removing them from the game, you eventually run out of them, and the game dies.

Yeah, I am making a big stink out of it because I have spent a lot of time to get to where I am, and there's zero hope of being able to counter what they are doing. It was though kinda funny that they got mad when I offered to pay mercs millions of gold to help me out.



Posted By: Faydwen
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 09:39
Originally posted by Malek Malek wrote:

Originally posted by Dak Dak wrote:

I felt the process to surrendering was pretty straightforward. In game message the alliance leader that you're at war with and state that you want no part in this war and surrender. Where you went wrong was making a scene in global chat. That should've been handled privately. 

I left the alliance because I wanted no part in this war. Ample time to leave should've been given to allow members to leave before declaring war. I also didn't like how attacks were sent at a member for surrendering. 


This is what should have happened. You chose not to. 


I requested peace 7 times Malek. 7. I left the alliance as soon as I figured out how to.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 10:14
Since the signing of the Geneva Convention can you name one signatory that has conformed to it?

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: OssianII
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 10:52
Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

Since the signing of the Geneva Convention can you name one signatory that has conformed to it?
There are, in fact, Four Geneva Conventions and Three additional protocols. Countries known to comply are in their hundreds and include:
  • Armenia
  • Austrailia (although delegates were suspected of being drunk at the time of signing)
  • Austria...
  • ... Fairy Roads Authority (using gossamer ink)...
  • ... Order of The Trout (by proxy)...
  • Oman
  • Portugal...
  • Slaves to Armok...
...to name but a few Big smile.

On the subject of whether the leaders of TA2IN and also SIN and LOKI  are conducting themselves in a fair and honourable manner - other than saying that their actions speak for themselves I have no comment to make.




Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 10:58
Originally posted by Stukahh Stukahh wrote:

Faydwen you are in violation of the Code of Conduct 

Forum rule 5

"Public posting of private messages between fellow players or players and Illyriad staff is prohibited. This includes discussions of warnings and suspensions of both game and forum accounts."

Perhaps you should review the Code of Conduct prior to accusing SIN of violating it.  No one is forcing you to do anything.  Account sitting as per terms of surrender has been going on for years in Illyriad.  

If you do not want to agree to the terms then a "no" is suffice.  We will continue our military campaign against your account.  

Last time I checked "not being fair" was not listed in the CoC violations

We are free use all of the game mechanics at our disposal to engage with you.

Stukahh


where did she post the igm? im not seeing it, im just seeing a description in her own words, but hey you guys are always right. 


-------------
The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies.
Napoleon Bonaparte


Posted By: Stukahh
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 12:28
OP has been edited to remove the violation.

Originally had a link to google docs with private messages copied onto it.

Faydwen,  please do not send igms to me.  I refuse to communicate with you in good faith knowing you will share them publicly.

Stukahh


-------------
I don't always drink. But when I do, I prefer the blood of my enemies.


Posted By: Celebrant
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 12:49
Originally posted by Stukahh Stukahh wrote:

OP has been edited to remove the violation.

Originally had a link to google docs with private messages copied onto it.

Faydwen,  please do not send igms to me.  I refuse to communicate with you in good faith knowing you will share them publicly.

Stukahh



Link was broken and unusable.



Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 13:03
Originally posted by Celebrant Celebrant wrote:

Originally posted by Stukahh Stukahh wrote:

OP has been edited to remove the violation.

Originally had a link to google docs with private messages copied onto it.

Faydwen,  please do not send igms to me.  I refuse to communicate with you in good faith knowing you will share them publicly.

Stukahh



Link was broken and unusable.


It worked as I looked at it myself. I can tell you the name of the person that wrote it. 


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 13:08
I know who signed it and who apparently abide, what I asked was name one which actually abides by it.

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 16:11
How does the fact that the conventions are sometimes or even regularly breached justify their wholesale abandonment in a game? 


Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 16:28
Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

How does the fact that the conventions are sometimes or even regularly breached justify their wholesale abandonment in a game?

Momentarily ignoring the absurdity of war deserters self-declaring "civilian" status for their own convenience, the disparity is justified because: 1. nobody has actually agreed to the Geneva Convention in Illyriad, and 2. Illyriad is a video game, not reality.

-------------
Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Eresh
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 16:33
Originally posted by Faydwen Faydwen wrote:

 
There's absolutely no hope of my towns being able to defend against their onslaught. They are attacking me with multiple people, all of whom are attacking with multiple armies. All of whom each have at least one town, if not more, that have more population than my entire collection of 6 put together.

It's not up to your enemies to build less troops, it's up to you to build more troops. You are the only person on Illyriad responsible for building your own defense. You are also the only one on Illyriad responsible for picking the alliance you chose to join. Your alliance declared war knowing it was a training alliance and knowing it couldn't fight the target and knowing it couldn't defend any of it's members in said fight. The problem is on you and your alliance, not people your side declared war on.

Originally posted by Faydwen Faydwen wrote:

At this point they are simply actively trying to remove me from the game simply because there's no challenge for them to do so.

If the goal was to remove everyone from the game that there's no challenge to remove, then there'd be about 10 people in the game. You're not special, you're just earlier in line than the next guy in your alliance member list due to bad luck, placement, or karma for something you did in a past life ;)

Originally posted by Faydwen Faydwen wrote:


Newer players like myself are the life blood of any online game. When you start removing them from the game, you eventually run out of them, and the game dies.

You're not new! 9 months old is not new! You aren't being removed from the game by anyone. Only you can make you quit the game. 


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 16:38
Originally posted by Ten Kulch Ten Kulch wrote:

Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

How does the fact that the conventions are sometimes or even regularly breached justify their wholesale abandonment in a game?

Momentarily ignoring the absurdity of war deserters self-declaring "civilian" status for their own convenience, the disparity is justified because: 1. nobody has actually agreed to the Geneva Convention in Illyriad, and 2. Illyriad is a video game, not reality.
There's video ????


Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 17:02
i wonder what the devs think of a demand for sitter rights to see mails and such. pretty sure that breaks some kinda privacy 

-------------
The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies.
Napoleon Bonaparte


Posted By: Fiona
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 17:12
Love whiners hehe


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 17:47
Well Lore, I am guessing it is a request for sitter rights, and only the account owner can nominate sitters, thus if someone does not like the request or disagrees with the request they can refuse. Its not like anyone can force you to appoint a sitter. Get over it and stop trying to make things more than they are. Perhaps if you played more actively instead of trolling the forums you might be able to help these people so so desperately seem to be trying to help in the forums.

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 18:39
Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

Well Lore, I am guessing it is a request for sitter rights, and only the account owner can nominate sitters, thus if someone does not like the request or disagrees with the request they can refuse. Its not like anyone can force you to appoint a sitter. Get over it and stop trying to make things more than they are. Perhaps if you played more actively instead of trolling the forums you might be able to help these people so so desperately seem to be trying to help in the forums.

how many requests have you had that end in or else. also this "request" is to go through ingame mails.
this is not a voluntary sharing


-------------
The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies.
Napoleon Bonaparte


Posted By: Stukahh
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 18:57
Let's be careful not to equate using game mechanics to force compliance as the same as using RL threats or coercion.

We can threaten someone's cities and armies all we want.  That is not a violation of the CoC.  

No one is bring forced to do anything here.  She had a chance to surrender and comply to set out terms.  She also could have made a counter offer or just flat out declined the terms.

Players are allowed within the CoC to destroy the cities of anyone they wish for any reason they wish.  So to threaten that upon someone is totally fine and not against the rules.

Stukahh


-------------
I don't always drink. But when I do, I prefer the blood of my enemies.


Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 19:04
Originally posted by Stukahh Stukahh wrote:

Let's be careful not to equate using game mechanics to force compliance as the same as using RL threats or coercion.

We can threaten someone's cities and armies all we want.  That is not a violation of the CoC.  

No one is bring forced to do anything here.  She had a chance to surrender and comply to set out terms.  She also could have made a counter offer or just flat out declined the terms.

Players are allowed within the CoC to destroy the cities of anyone they wish for any reason they wish.  So to threaten that upon someone is totally fine and not against the rules.

Stukahh

incase you hadnt noticed stukkah, it is not the destroying cities or even demanding ingame gold that i have an issue with.
the issue is with the demanding access to someone elses account to read through their PRIVATE mails.
these are not game mechanics and if you think they are, i suggest you start being carefull.
they might be ingame private mails but private none the less


-------------
The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies.
Napoleon Bonaparte


Posted By: Celebrant
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 19:18
Do developers have the habit of answering, or at least reading, written by their customers?


Posted By: Stukahh
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 19:22
@Lorre

Players are allowed to ask for ANYTHING they wish within surrender terms as long as it is game related and does not violate the Code of Conduct

We are "demanding" nothing.  We don't have the power to demand anything.  We can ask and the other party involved can respond within their own free will.

If someone is willing to breach their own privacy by adding a sitter and did so under their own free will then all is good.  People do it everyday in illy when adding a sitter.  This is no different.






-------------
I don't always drink. But when I do, I prefer the blood of my enemies.


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 20:10
Hi All,

We've had a number of requests for clarifications on where we stand on a variety of issues, so I thought it might be a good time to post about military playstyles and war more generally, and also on the particular question about sitting privileges.

On War
Illyriad is a sandbox game.  Our job is to provide the tools to make different playstyles and strategies work out for players, individually and collectively.  There are no 'wrong' choices of playstyle, and there are no 'right' choices either.

So long as it is not in breach of the http://www.illyriad.co.uk/Home/TermsConditions" rel="nofollow - Terms & Conditions and http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/code-of-conduct-rules-updated-5dec2014_topic31.html" rel="nofollow - Code of Conduct , players are free to use the tools provided to play Illyriad in whatsoever way they choose.

Historically, the Illy gameworld has had periods of all-consuming server-wide wars and periods of tranquil peace.

The Black vs White war of 2010, for example, involved pretty much every account on the server iirc.  Sections of http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/the-history-of-illyriad-incomplete_topic3293_page1.html" rel="nofollow - Nokigon's rather excellent history thread might seem eerily familiar to more recent denizens of the forum who may not have been playing the game back then.

I'll say today what I said back in http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/game-on_topic2458_post27931.html#27931%20" rel="nofollow - the original 27-page megathread from the 2011 H vs Valar war  : 
"Illyriad is, by design, a sandbox game.  This means that it is what the players themselves choose to make of it, without any prescription of playstyle from us beyond some simple rules (such as the automatic "new player protection")."

The http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/h-and-the-crows_topic5324_page1.html" rel="nofollow - 2013 Harmless vs Crows war thread may also induce extreme feelings of deja vu, or, indeed, http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/the-great-war_topic6075.html" rel="nofollow - The Great War of 2014  - a history megathread that nearly rekindled hostilities :)

As I said, we've had periods of war, and periods of peace.  The server and the game have survived - indeed, thrived - after both. 

I believe that history is generally cyclical in nature, and it may be the case that Illy is due a period of turmoil round about now.  However, we don't mind either way, and what ensues is absolutely not up to us, the dev team... it's up to you, the community, and how you choose - both individually and collectively - to engage (or not) in a fluctuating political environment.

Regarding 'demands' for sitting rights access 

This is very simple.  
  1. Sharing your login credentials with *anyone* is a no-no, for any reason whatsoever. 

  2. You may choose to appoint up to two sitters to sit your account for whatever reason you wish.  Please carefully read the warning on the 'Appoint Sitter' page before doing so, so you fully understand what rights you are granting by appointing a sitter.
Other players may request or demand ingame things from you as part of War Reparations - be that gold; resources; trading; mining or territorial rights - or indeed any other ingame mechanism that we have made available to you as a player, such as sitting privileges.  

In the past, Terms of Surrender have included even such things as giving up towns, the ejection of named players from the losing alliance, as well as requirements that the Terms of Surrender themselves be kept confidential.  Sometimes Terms of Surrender have been neither offered nor accepted - and players have been seiged back into the 'newb ring'.

Whether you (individually as a player or collectively as an alliance/confed) choose to acquiesce to, renegotiate, or resist such requests and demands is entirely up to you.  We have absolutely no opinion on the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of any particular playstyle, so long as the actions do not break the Terms & Conditions or Code of Conduct.

Intentional Typos to Circumvent Profanity Filters
As a final note, we take a very dim view of intentional typos that are, in our sole opinion, intended to circumvent profanity filters and the like.  

Please refrain from doing so; I've asked GM Cerberus to police this behaviour enthusiastically both in the forums and in GC.

With best wishes,

GM Stormcrow


Posted By: Stukahh
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 21:03
Thanks dev team for a much needed and very clear clarification on the issue at hand.

-------------
I don't always drink. But when I do, I prefer the blood of my enemies.


Posted By: Eresh
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 21:20
Can I just say kudos to GM Stormcrow for that response. Not so much for agreeing with what we've been saying lol, but for showing you actually know what's going on in your game now and in the past. I've been playing online games like this for very nearly 2 decades, and it's rare that the devs know what their players are up to... the fact you can list off past wars by name and year is astounding.


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 21:31
Originally posted by Eresh Eresh wrote:

Can I just say kudos to GM Stormcrow for that response. Not so much for agreeing with what we've been saying lol, but for showing you actually know what's going on in your game now and in the past. I've been playing online games like this for very nearly 2 decades, and it's rare that the devs know what their players are up to... the fact you can list off past wars by name and year is astounding.
Why, thank you!  

It might surprise people to realise that I do pay quite a lot of attention to what's going on ingame, largely because I'm forbidden from playing Illy myself and so have to live vicariously through observing the actions of others.

It was actually fascinating to re-read those threads; I lost a good couple of hours of dev time today doing just that.

http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/the-history-of-illyriad-incomplete_topic3293_post74034.html#74034" rel="nofollow - One post that caught my eye was from 2014.  

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Yes, there is predictably a large war at the end of summer/beginning of fall.  There are sometimes wars at other times, of course.

As far as I'm aware that's pretty much held true each and every year.  I'm sure it's to coincide with the peak of Hurricane Season Wink but would be interested in people's thoughts about 'why' this might be the case - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/topic7306_post98469.html#98469" rel="nofollow - in this other thread, so as not to derail this one, please !

SC

EDIT: Added link to new thread re timing of wars in Illy, and moved first reply from CanesRule


Posted By: Hobblez
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 21:57
Originally posted by Faydwen Faydwen wrote:

   

There's absolutely no hope of my towns being able to defend against their onslaught. They are attacking me with multiple people, all of whom are attacking with multiple armies. All of whom each have at least one town, if not more, that have more population than my entire collection of 6 put together.




Well that's a load of BS, even with your newly lowered population your "6" have a population of 22k+ pop, my highest pop is just under 17k...also just took a quick look at the top 3 players in [SIN] aka the alliance that is sieging you and the highest pop city amongst those 3 players is 17.5k....maybe your exaggerations and manipulation of the truth to fund your own cause is why no one is feeling sorry for you....


Posted By: tester101
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 23:19
Originally posted by Hobblez Hobblez wrote:

Originally posted by Faydwen Faydwen wrote:

   

There's absolutely no hope of my towns being able to defend against their onslaught. They are attacking me with multiple people, all of whom are attacking with multiple armies. All of whom each have at least one town, if not more, that have more population than my entire collection of 6 put together.




Well that's a load of BS, even with your newly lowered population your "6" have a population of 22k+ pop, my highest pop is just under 17k...also just took a quick look at the top 3 players in [SIN] aka the alliance that is sieging you and the highest pop city amongst those 3 players is 17.5k....maybe your exaggerations and manipulation of the truth to fund your own cause is why no one is feeling sorry for you....

Maybe she meant all the gold farming cities / accounts feeding those low pop war cities?


Posted By: The Reaper
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 00:38
It isn't the players fault for using their alts, to farm gold to feed their more militarily focused account, that's basic self sufficiency and defense. #Illy101


Posted By: tester101
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 00:52
Originally posted by The Reaper The Reaper wrote:

It isn't the players fault for using their alts, to farm gold to feed their more militarily focused account, that's basic self sufficiency and defense. #Illy101

I think we both knows it goes beyond that :P I have brother , sister, mom , dad, grandparents, gf, maid all playing from my house!


Posted By: Eresh
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 02:24
Originally posted by tester101 tester101 wrote:

I think we both knows it goes beyond that :P I have brother , sister, mom , dad, grandparents, gf, maid all playing from my house!

Your inability to follow rules and feed your account with 1 alt + harvesting/crafting/trading/sieging/whatever is not our problem. I started 5 days before the OP and started my alt 2 months after that. I have over a billion gold stored in my trade hub. 


Posted By: tester101
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 03:50
Originally posted by Eresh Eresh wrote:

Originally posted by tester101 tester101 wrote:

I think we both knows it goes beyond that :P I have brother , sister, mom , dad, grandparents, gf, maid all playing from my house!

Your inability to follow rules and feed your account with 1 alt + harvesting/crafting/trading/sieging/whatever is not our problem. I started 5 days before the OP and started my alt 2 months after that. I have over a billion gold stored in my trade hub. 

You didnt cap any cities, knew right away you needed to start an alt for feeding and no one sent you any res? Your just that good lol.


Posted By: Faydwen
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 04:59
Originally posted by Hobblez Hobblez wrote:

Originally posted by Faydwen Faydwen wrote:

   

There's absolutely no hope of my towns being able to defend against their onslaught. They are attacking me with multiple people, all of whom are attacking with multiple armies. All of whom each have at least one town, if not more, that have more population than my entire collection of 6 put together.




Well that's a load of BS, even with your newly lowered population your "6" have a population of 22k+ pop, my highest pop is just under 17k...also just took a quick look at the top 3 players in [SIN] aka the alliance that is sieging you and the highest pop city amongst those 3 players is 17.5k....maybe your exaggerations and manipulation of the truth to fund your own cause is why no one is feeling sorry for you....


Please note that you even said it yourself in your post. One of their cities has a population nearly equal or higher than the population of my entire collection of cities put together.

I have 8k population across 6 cities as of now. TOTAL, not 8k in each of the cities, but 8,000 population divided up between 6 cities.

Each one of them have a town close to or above 17k, and then additional towns beyond that with also high numbers.


Posted By: Spartacus
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 11:40
Look at her profile. Look at her military rankings. Her only offence is standing up to a bully and instead of people cheering her on, people are telling her its her own fault. This game is now morally bankrupt.


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 11:48
Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

Look at her profile. Look at her military rankings. Her only offence is standing up to a bully and instead of people cheering her on, people are telling her its her own fault. This game is now morally bankrupt.

That is exceptionally hypocritcal coming from you sucbold. This is the guy that called for a pile on, and when people came to help , he wont even help them himself. Everyone that you ask to help you will get burned. 

Now if she had approached me like Dak did, then none of this would happened. Gwen as well for that matter who you thought to attack for surrendering herself, so who is the morally bankrupt one here? 

Pull your head in. 




Posted By: Faydwen
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 16:47
Originally posted by Malek Malek wrote:

Originally posted by Spartacus Spartacus wrote:

Look at her profile. Look at her military rankings. Her only offence is standing up to a bully and instead of people cheering her on, people are telling her its her own fault. This game is now morally bankrupt.


That is exceptionally hypocritcal coming from you sucbold. This is the guy that called for a pile on, and when people came to help , he wont even help them himself. Everyone that you ask to help you will get burned. 

Now if she had approached me like Dak did, then none of this would happened. Gwen as well for that matter who you thought to attack for surrendering herself, so who is the morally bankrupt one here? 

Pull your head in. 




I asked for terms 7 times in global and private messages before I understood what people meant by IGM. YOU specifically even told me that if i left the alliance that would be fine for surrender in GC.

After I figured out how to leave the alliance and did so, you then recanted that and quoted a persuit policy.

Then yall are surprised i would be mad about something like that. When you tell someone that a certain move would allow them out of a situation and then don't follow through with that, it's pretty atrocious.

All of those requests were denied, and now you have wiped me out of the game with out a second thought. So, thank you for erasing everything of my game time for something I had nothing to do with, and wanted no part of.

The armies that showed up on my towns were larger than my entire population put together. There was no hope in defending against that. My only chance was to try to get mercs to help me out, which did not work, but making fun of me in GC for the attempt is another low blow by you and your people.

Now that I am wiped out, and clearly had no support, even your "maybe she's a sat account by Aesir" claims are moot. If I had the ability to defend myself I would have.

If I had the ability to fight back, I would have. I did defend as best I could, but when you are faced with multiple armies that are larger than everything you own in the game it's impossible. The game is time driven, a player with 6 years of game play will always defeat one with a few months. My largest army was 1,400 soldiers. The smallest army that I saw the numbers of, was 7,000+ strong. All of my soldiers combined between my towns was 1900. Even if i had been able to combine all of them, i wouldn't have even be able to defend against just one of the 20 armies that were sent against me.

It's just sickening that you would do this to an innocent person. Yes, I am innocent. I have literally never taken hostile actions against any active accounts in the game. Most of my attack points come from this conflict, and the rest come from taking a town from an abandoned account.

I am just boggled by what you and your people truly sought to gain by removing me from the game. If i had had say a bunch of valuable cities, or resources, or anything of worth, then sure I would get that. If I was involved with the conflict, or hostility against you, yeah I would get that too.

Now you're gonna claim that my getting mad at yall is the reason you wiped me out. Sure, okay, but if you were in my shoes you would have been mad too. As you were faced with a situation you had nothing to do with, and could do nothing to defend yourself against.


Posted By: Bulani
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 17:20
Fay, sometimes we all pay for our associations. A solider on the battlefield rarely gets to pick the enemy. Is it fair.... Fundamentally no, but it's life. Soliders are still sent out and they still die and they never wanted to be there in the first place.

Your situation is even more straight forward. You choose to be a part of a non warring alliance, SV, and they took thier credo and threw it out the window and declared war. Is it fair, probably not, but it is what it is. Your friends started it. You compounded it by your ignorance and bluster. Now you are moving your cities as far as you can. Welcome to Illyriad!


Posted By: Corwin
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 17:41
Wow. Is this meant as entertainment? What is the reason you keep on complaining Faydwen? It looks like it won't have any beneficial result for you. To me it sounds like you're just nerdraging. That's amusing for all of us reading this from the sideline, but it's getting embarassing. 

I'll give you some free advise that comes from a completely neutral source: 

  • First of all, you can't be removed from the game. You could get noob-ringed, but you'll have to push people very far to get there. I'm pretty sure you can still avoid that, even without giving sitting rights away. Work on your negotiation skills. 
  • If you think you made too many too strong enemies just abandon and create new accounts,take your loss and start over. If you lay low you don't make much enemies in this game. Or look for vengeance. Find allies with the same goals and try as hard as you can. You'll find out you can become a worthy opponent within a year when you have the right mindset and dedication.
  • Settle or exo your towns in an area where you have allies around you and no enemies. Most of elgea is save i think.
  • By complaining and crying you're only placing yourself opposite of the ones you want to negotiate with. It won't bring you where you want to be. You'll probably find people who agree with you, but that won't change your situation, so if you want to change your situation, keep your complains to yourself. At least if you still want to save your account.
  • Last point of advise: if you think the game mechanics are unfair for newer players and you think the more experienced players are generally jerks, just find another game to play. You're here to have fun I assume. I'm sure you can find in game friends around here, but that's hard when you keep spending time making enemies.





Posted By: Ten Kulch
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 19:04
The housecat does not toy with the mouse because it is hungry.

Learn to fight, or learn to play dead.

*Ten Kulch does not endorse grief play, but thinks it is foolish to deny its existence on the Internet.

-------------
Check out my blog, http://illywarmonger.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow - Warmongering in Illyriad for self-defense techniques, military city construction, and PvP strategies.


Posted By: Eresh
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 19:29
Originally posted by tester101 tester101 wrote:

You didnt cap any cities, knew right away you needed to start an alt for feeding and no one sent you any res? Your just that good lol.

Of course I capped cities, knew I needed an alt, and got sent res. What does any of that have to do with the topic at hand? You're saying you need 7-10 accounts (your "brother, sister, mom, dad, grandparents, gf, and maid") to feed troops. I'm saying you don't. 

Everyone has the option to cap cities. If their alliance doesn't allow it it's their problem being in that alliance.

Everyone has the option to create an alt. If they don't opt to do that it's their problem for being lazy or being content with only 1 account and it's production capabilities.

Everyone has the option to ask for res from their alliance or gc. I've never seen anyone ask for res and not get it. 

Everyone has the option to join an alliance that will teach how to play the game beyond "log on once a week and click 4 buttons and log back off again". 

Everyone has the option to read gc where things like this are discussed ad naseum every day if their alliance sucks too bad to teach it. 

Everyone has the option to read the forums and guides and blogs and websites where everything from "how do I build a storehouse?" to "which equipment is best against x enemy on y terrain?" can be learned for those in alliances too sucky to teach it and who are also not around to read it in gc.

NO ONE is playing at a handicap on Illyriad. ALL information, opportunities, and possibilities are available for EVERY SINGLE PLAYER. People need to get over themselves and seize it, or quit crying when they don't have it. 


Posted By: Tensmoor
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 20:14
Not being a military player I don't agree with everything that they say or do however as Eresh has said one of the major features of this game is the abundance of sources of information about pretty much everything in the game. Illy is not a simple game, it is a complex system of interacting subsystems. This is a necessary part (well I can't think of any other way of doing it) of trying to produce a game that allows players to follow different styles in their play.

To be able to fully take part in the game you do need to develop at least a basic understanding of those various subsystems. Military players need to have a basic understanding of how hunting and crafting works so they can anticipate what equipment is likely to be available to enhance their troops abilities. Likewise the hunter/crafter needs to be able to appreciate what equipment is most likely to be wanted by the military players so they can decide which NPCs to hunt and which rare resources to gather.

Being a multiplayer game Illy requires quite a large amount of interaction with other players and in my opinion it provides a wide range of options on how to do that in game from General, Alliance and Private chats, In Game Messages and the Forums. Each of those is suitable for exchanging various types of info and everyone should take the time to familiarize themselves with them so they can decide which is the most appropriate for a particular situation. For me the chats are mainly for general chat, asking/answering general questions (private chat can be useful for asking/answering slightly more specific questions). Forums are good for creating permanent records of things and providing sources that are available to all. IGMs are for me the workhorse - they provide a permanent record of discussions between two parties and for any form of negotiation should (in my opinion) be the medium of choice.

If at any time I need to contact an alliance the first thing I do is read their main alliance page. There are often various names provided on there showing who to contact for various reasons. If there aren't then I look at the highest ranking members and will select one that I know I've seen about in GC as they are the most likely to respond in a timely fashion. This is how I've contacted various alliances since the first day I joined Illy.

Sorry if this is a bit rambling but I'm not known for my linguistic abilities.



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net