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Who Is TUF

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance int the Broken Lands, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6889
Printed Date: 08 Jul 2020 at 12:28
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Topic: Who Is TUF
Posted By: KenRychard
Subject: Who Is TUF
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 02:13
   With all the responses to the declaration of War on TUF by Yarr, I wanted to start a new little thread to express just MY opinion and not respond to the myriad of other arguments already in debate on the TUF/YARR thread..
      SO who is TUF?
        
      For the most part we are a lively alliance of big talkers. This is the 5th game of this sort I've played, and the third alliance in this game.  And while all alliance chats have there long quiet times, and there times of, "How was work today, and Are your kids still sick", TUFs AC has its period of outrageous laughter, grandstanding, boasting and trash talking. Its a lot of fun and has a lot of fun players. I'm not one of them. I'm pretty quiet and keep to myself much of the time.

     But then comes the Dlords war. Based entirely on a leaked and edited transcript of an AC chat. By edited I'm not saying its untrue. Its more like a Readers Digest Condensed version of the actual conversation. As always, multiple people were talking about different things and the spy edited out the extraneous material. I've read a copy of the actual transcript and Its reasonably accurate.

    Yeah, we were talking about taking Dlords SS mine. And then about destroying Dlords as an alliance. And then about kicking SIN's tail as well. Its all there in undeniable truth. And it was all ridiculous trash talking.  There are no targets mentioned. No troop counts discussed. No players speaking up and offering their troops for the fight. NO, we aren't morons and do have a Slack channel for the important details. But we still discuss the fact that we have upcoming operations in AC, and there was NONE of that. Anyone with half a brain can see from the transcript we were just BSing.

     Why, just 9 months ago after killing my first legion of legion of Giant Rats, I went into AC and declared, "I'm ready to kick SIN's ass now!"  And SIN didn't shake in their boots and have to declare on us first.
       So is Dlord's leadership a bunch of simpletons? Or is there another agenda?

    Then there is YARR. I respect YARRs decision to attack. And am grateful for their leaderships honest post on the reasons. Just a little  surprised. I was expecting the attack, just not this why.

      A few days back our truly fearless leader Agalloch had a small siege army on an uncontested, inactive and I think abandoned(not sure) city. And another player killed his siege army.
It was a minor fray with small loss, but with large consequence.
      Agalloch is Greek, and if you don't know what that means I'll explain in a story.

      Late one night a man is walking home from the bar and smoking his last cigarette of the day. He gets close to his house and tosses his still burning cigarette into his neighbor's yard. It lands in dry grass, starts a fire, and begins to burn the neighbor's house.
        The neighbor wakes up and sees the fire. But he DOESN"T call the fire department. He's GREEK.
Instead, he goes to his garage and gets a couple of cans of gasoline and spreads it all over his lawn, his neighbor's lawn and neighbor's house, and burns down both his and his neighbor's house.
       After both homes have burned and the two men are standing by the ashes the Greek turns to the Guy who started the fire and admits," I should have called the fire department first, and then after the fire was out came over and talked about this. But you Know, IM Greek after all."

     So Agalloch doesn't try to work this little misunderstanding out, but instead starts sending abusive IGMs and throwing gasoline all over this tiny fire until its completely blown out of proportion. I love Agalloch, but sometimes I think he missed his last rabies shot.
     I was sure YARR was going to declare just to pay us back for the really unreasonable and abusive hatemail this poor guy was getting from Aga..

     Instead we get this,  Ill paraphrase not quote.
                WE are a land claim alliance, and TUF is anti landclaim
                 We have had past issues but they've been resolved, however we are uncomfortable with our close proximity in places like Pawa....
                 So we are going to have to declare on TUF because they are a threat..

     This is disturbingly revealing...

    Landclaimers want to declare a portion of the game map as a territory solely  their own, and declare they will attack and raze anyone who settles in their area.
    But OUTSIDE their landclaim  they want the right to settle as freely as any other player... SO, their areas are off limits to others, but they get free run of the rest of the map. Already disturbingly unfair.
   AND THEN YARR goes and adds, but they have cities in Pawa as well that they feel are threatened by the presence of TUF cities, so they need to force us out of Pawa as well...
  EFFECTIVELY  they are increasing their landclaim without actually declaring it. Take a look at my profile and see what I said about landclaims months ago... its coming true.

     This is a war game, and there are players playing it to WIN. That means they want to force other players out of the game, destroy other alliances, and eventually "win" by having only their alliance and  allies left in the game. And the way to do this is just what they are doing now.
    Consolidate a powerbase that is impregnable, then expand. Pick off one at a time the strong opponents who see this coming, until only the weak are left.

    There is a historical precedence for what is happening here. Long ago there was another great Land claim alliance. They were known as The Persian Empire. And when they had claimed all the land in the Middle East they sought to expand into new lands to the west, Greece.
     But a courageous King, Leonidas of Sparta, against the will of his own advisors who had given in to the bribes, lies and threats of the Persian Emperor; struck out with his small group of personal retainers, 300, to fight the Persians. Along the way he called to all of Greece to join him. But only the Thracians had the courage and wisdom to send 6000 of their men.
      Leonidas and his 300, the Thracians guarding their backs, stood against a MILLION and fought the Persians to a standstill, at the cost of all their lives.  Those 6300  men saved Greece while the rest of Greece cowered in fear, trembling, behind their walls.

         First Stomp, and then Shark/Vic/Unbow have had the foresight to see the inevitable result of land claiming... Illyriad will be WON and the game destroyed.  And now TUF has been targeted too for elimination because we too want Illyriad to be a place where thousands can join, play, leave and find the world hospitable yet challenging and PERSISTENT. This will all change if the land claimer's go unchallenged. They will WIN this game, and everyone else will be destroyed. 

   Its time NOW before its too late for the rest of you to wake up and make a choice.

      SO who IS TUF ?

      WE ARE THE 300!

      Who are YOU going to BE?
     

    
      



Replies:
Posted By: Hyrdmoth
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 10:05
http://www.keats-shelley-house.org/en/works/works-p-b-shelley/p-b-shelley-ozymandias" rel="nofollow - This too will pass.


Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 12:57
Admirable post with good theory and story telling. 
Namaste, KenRychard.




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PublicRelations
HumanResources


Posted By: Skybreaker
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 16:34
In regards to the"Illyriad will be WON and the game destroyed." I think thats a bit much, historically (in illy anyway) there have been many coalitions at the top. GA and DSD r prime examples, but they havent destroyed the game, theyve given it history. Without it, would illy really be enjoyable?


Posted By: Lotharblack
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 17:07
KenRychard being a greek myself i believe you are portraying us wrong. 

There is no way us admiting of doing the wrond thing. 

And probably we would be the ones throwing the cigarette to our yard and then wrongly accusing the neighbour and burning down his house....  Opa! 

Tongue


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Lord Loth


Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 22:43
Great read. My one quibble would be that earth history is full of examples of land claims by both people and animals. It is more the natural order than not.

I respect the anti landclaim perspective that landclaimers are ruining the game but from the perspective of a player who likes a bit of military fun, I humbly disagree.

Since BL was opened almost exactly 2 years ago, the majority of conflict has occurred in BL. Elgea is relatively stable with most new players choosing the hope of "a better life" in the broken lands.

In analogy terms, effectively BL is the new world being fought over by the British, French and Spanish etc and traded in by the Dutch, while also being settled in by many others who have no interest in the politics but have to be aware of their locale if they hope to prosper.

Illyriad cannot be won by one or more landclaiming alliances fighting either other landclaimers or indeed non landclaimers. It can only be lost to large confeds insisting that no-one is allowed to go to war at all.

One other point that I was glad was alluded to is that Aga could not or would not have waited until an issue was resolved before dealing directly with one more immediate and closer to home.








Posted By: TomBombadil
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 00:08
Dwarves reacting overly violently to insults and threats of taking their precious mines, and Pirates attacking people who aren't pirates... I can't exactly say I'm surprised.

A wiser man perhaps would have avoided dwarves and pirates altogether. Giant rats are not to be scoffed at either...


Posted By: KenRychard
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 03:06
  Thanks for the replies!   Id like to add I am "new" here with only a year of experience. My past experience has included games in which there was a "winner" who made the game unplayable for others. In fact, one of the games I played started new servers on a regular basis because older servers became unplayable.

   SO my opinion is not based as much on a complete judgement of Illyriad's mechanics, but reflects my past experience in other realms.  I LIKE this game better than any of the past games and would like to be a part of it for more than just a brief time. Have already made some good friends here!

     Is the phrase "This too shall pass" a polite way to say my post is similar to a bowel movement and that its a bunch of crap? I laughed until I cried when I read that... if I misinterpreted the posters meaning, well that just reflects my own state of mind doesn't it .. hehe

   Thanks Curm... I hope we can fight honorably, may the best men/women win and may the conflict resolve without us all back in the newbie ring LOL.


Posted By: Belegar Ironhammer
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 06:01
Originally posted by KenRychard KenRychard wrote:

 
    There is a historical precedence for what is happening here. Long ago there was another great Land claim alliance. They were known as The Persian Empire. And when they had claimed all the land in the Middle East they sought to expand into new lands to the west, Greece.
     But a courageous King, Leonidas of Sparta, against the will of his own advisors who had given in to the bribes, lies and threats of the Persian Emperor; struck out with his small group of personal retainers, 300, to fight the Persians. Along the way he called to all of Greece to join him. But only the Thracians had the courage and wisdom to send 6000 of their men.
      Leonidas and his 300, the Thracians guarding their backs, stood against a MILLION and fought the Persians to a standstill, at the cost of all their lives.  Those 6300  men saved Greece while the rest of Greece cowered in fear, trembling, behind their walls.

Actually Greek historians vastly over inflated Persian numbers, who didn't have anywhere near a million. The Spartans were killed to a man and the Greek army scattered and then Athens was burned to the ground so they did not exactly stop Xerxes.

What really saved Greece was the largely Athenian fleet at the Battle of Salamis where they heavily defeated the Persian Navy. Discouraged, Xerxes returned to Persia, but left a large army in Greece which was then defeated by a combined Greek force the following year.

The Greek city states were hardly cowards; they had badly defeated Darius, the father of Xerxes, at the battle of Marathon a few decades earlier, a battle that the Spartans didn't even bother to show up for, choosing instead to celebrate one of their many religious festivals.

Internal politics kept more Greeks from the battle of Thermopylae not cowardice. The Spartan's sacrifice did not create some golden age utopia like you imagine, but rather with the Persians removed as a threat the city states soon resumed their normal fighting among themselves in the bloody Peloponnesian War, a war that saw some Greeks get paid off as mercenaries by the Persians to fight other Greeks.

Sparta was also not a bastion of freedom. Instead, Sparta was lead by a brutal authoritarian regime that forced all males into the military at age 7, practiced slavery, encouraged the murder of said slaves by officially declaring war on them every year, and used infanticide on a wide scale.

But if you want to emulate Sparta. Sure, go ahead. 


Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 09:00
Good thing then that I am an Athenian, the birthplace of democracy.


Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 13:07
Originally posted by Lotharblack Lotharblack wrote:

KenRychard being a greek myself i believe you are portraying us wrong. 

There is no way us admiting of doing the wrond thing. 

And probably we would be the ones throwing the cigarette to our yard and then wrongly accusing the neighbour and burning down his house....  Opa! 

Tongue

hahaha right on brother!!! Opa!


Posted By: Toks
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 13:33
Originally posted by KenRychard KenRychard wrote:

    Landclaimers want to declare a portion of the game map as a territory solely  their own, and declare they will attack and raze anyone who settles in their area.
    But OUTSIDE their landclaim  they want the right to settle as freely as any other player... SO, their areas are off limits to others, but they get free run of the rest of the map.


I always found this ... "interesting" (in an annoying sort of way)  Tongue

Of course, anyone is free to make claims, but they need some way of enforcing the claims.


Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 17:45
Well done, Ken.  But I would add another game to the list of games where land claiming destroyed the game, one quite similar to Illyriad, Lords of Ultima.

When I came to LoU 5 years ago the process had been well along the way where large alliances formed confederations with "daughter" alliances and claimed continents for themselves.  They then insisted everybody else move and if you didn't you were removed, even driven from the game.  These players all practiced the standard "aggressive game play" style, including the nasty talk and "it's a war game" philosophy.  They all insisted on there being two classes of players, the "warriors" who were to be admired and held up as the true standard of perfection, and the "farmers" who were just to be farmed.  In LoU there was no community who stood up and insisted that those who wished to be anything but a warrior be treated fairly or left alone, and there was not friendly a GC.  The GC there was avoided by almost everybody because to show up and say anything contrary to the doctrines of the Holy Warrior Church was considered an act of aggression to be dealt with post haste...by, of course, sending armies.    In the end the game turned too nasty to attract and keep new players and was shut down due to revenues being too small to justify it continuing.

Now I can't say with certainty that there were no other factor influencing shutting it down, but I can say that it failed to attract and keep new players because their was no place for any but the well organized, military minded players to exist AND if even if you wished to do so you were hounded into either joining them or being continuously farmed. 

That is the history of several games where the sandbox was left in the hands of the aggressive game players.  It's bee suggest that dividing this game into a "war continent" and a "peace continent" would help solve this problem by giving the aggressive game players their own space.  But this is not possible as it only tells new players they are restricted to even less land and opportunity unless they agree to being dominated by warriors.  It is neither fair nor tenable a solution.  It would restrict the opportunities of new players and, the nature of "aggressive game play" is such that there would be reason to respect such a rule because "aggressive game play" means being the one to make the rules.   And don't kid yourself, there are already alliances on Elgea who practice aggressive game play.

We have had about a year to see how land claims have effected the game.  As one who has consistently suffered at the hands of the land claimers for daring to even speak up, I can attest to the idea that it's not been, for me, just a question of freedom of settlement, but even one of freedom of speech.  In that it follows the same pattern of "aggressive game play" I experienced in Lords of Ultima and you may have experienced in other games.  We have had a year and what have we learned?

First, as just noted, that we are not allowed to object.  When you do you are attacked both verbally (in some of the nastiest terms) and in the game.

Second, we have learned that the determination of the land is such that even the most flimsy of excuses will be used to go to war.  Even when other things have been said that would preclude the excuse.  Like, "the war is over no matter what [the other person does]" followed by repeated attacks because the other person didn't check the "accept peace" button.  "No matter what" the other person does, means exactly that.  And when somebody in a BL based alliance jokes that he wants to take a much larger Elgea base alliances' mine, it's taken as a real threat.  And when somebody says that somebody said something disparaging about somebody else, the "offended" alliance "feels" it's enough to declare war.  Any excuse will do, and none is even needed (as Jejune recognizes) if you practice "aggressive game play."

Third, we have learned that the determination of the land claimers to dominate is such that they have no sense of fair play.  Six players and two alliances against one person has been done.  Two large alliances against one smaller than either.  And we have seen the argument that these odds are somehow "fair" since the smaller can beat the larger if they do everything right....ignoring the idea that the larger usually has more or as much experience and more resources and can also, do everything right. 

Fourth, we have learned that the land claimers make no bones about expanding their claims.  Pawa is being claimed by Yarr.  It's been suggested they take even the small sliver of Almenly where my cities reside into their claim.  At the same time, they see no problem settling where ever they like.  Which, of course, means, they can dominate more area.  As I said in one of my forum posts before, you can dominate all BL with just three clusters.  One land claiming alliance now has two and there is no reason to suppose they will not out-grow the current actual claim and suddenly decide they need another. 

Above all this though, is the attitude the Illy that their personal enjoyment means they get to make the rules and if you don't like it, shut up or be punished.  That's "aggressive game play" and it's what will take us down the road to perdition...a road you do not wish to travel, if we do not take action.

Actions to be taken. (Since I have nothing to lose at this point). 

1) If you lead an alliance, wake up.  Your alliance is needed.  You are more responsible for the health of Illyriad more than those of us who are small.  When you wake up a year from now and some "aggressive game player" is at your door, it may be too late. 

2) If you do not lead an alliance and you can't get them to MOVE, move yourself.  TUF or any other alliance who is willing to move against "aggressive game play" will welcome you.  If you don't like TUF or can't find one that you do like, form your own and then recruit.

3) If you are a small player or don't wish to get involved militarily for whatever reasons, you can always support the effort with donations.  Anonymity is guaranteed if you contact me.

4) Finally, and most importantly, you need to talk.  You need to speak to people about the issue.  You need to recruit them to join you in stopping the aggressive game players from destroying this game like they have too many others.

AJ  [ajqtrz]




Posted By: The Borg
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 18:39
Ken,
  I understand your handwringing about land claims. I really do. I am obviously in SIN and we are an unabashed land claiming alliance. I have played this game on and off since 2013. I feel the game has become "stale" for lack of a better term. I personally believe this is a war game. I don't believe this game is a trading/crafting/farming game as others may believe. Just look at the research tree as evidence of this.  I believe the land claimers have added something to a dying game that no others have added in years. Lets be honest for a minute. This game is dying. Interest is waning. I point to the amount of inactive/sat accounts out there as proof of this. If we were to clean these accounts out I would bet you 40% of Elgea would be empty. Land claimers and their wars are creating a "buzz" in this game. Maybe that "buzz" can save the game from extinction and maybe not. Look at GC for example. Do you find any intelligent conversation going on in GC? I see virtual hugs and hot tubs. War loving alliances add the dimension of risk to the game. Good needs Evil. Day needs Night. Ying needs Yang.
I hope I was able to communicate my thoughts for the reader of this post. If I lost you in my thought process I apologize.


Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 19:19
AJ's claim that land claims will destroy the game of Illyriad is hyperbole. It's fear-mongering -- pure demagoguery.

A year ago, when land claims were expanding rapidly, he had a much better point than he does today. After a year of land claims, the number and scope of land claims has contracted, not expanded. The reason for this is simple: lots of alliances experimented with them, but only few had the organization, leadership, and infrastructure to enforce and maintain them.

AJ is always demanding "evidence" for people who disagree with him. Well, here's some evidence. I quickly put together this slideshow of every major land claiming event over the past year. Take a look at where we were in July of last year and now.

https://imgflip.com/gif/13pm8w" rel="nofollow">

As you can see, land claims are not running roughshod over the server, forcing people from the game left and right. 

If players want to be anti-claim and use it as a pretext for conflict in the game, then great. That's in part what they were designed to do. But let's quit the fear-mongering about them.


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https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/394156" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 19:35
Baldrick arises from his Friday afternoon nap to make another observation...

He notes that as of today there are 5,374 player accounts with non zero scores.  He also remembers checking these figures a year or two ago and back then from memory there were in the region of 5,000 to 5,500 such accounts.  All things being equal, Baldrick reckons that the game is surviving, and it would be doing better, if the focus wasn't on AoA.


Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 19:46
I am not reading all of AJ's latest diatribe, but I notice he mentions Lord of Ultima, which I played (and dare I say won in the 2nd fastest time ever as part of a largely rookie alliance).

Land claimers did not ruin that game, they played it to it's max. It was a wargame with an endgame and controlling regions was essential. It was a 100% military game and although many Illy players played it, there is no direct comparison to be made.

Edit : Thinking about it I may have been a continent leader sent to squish a rival alliances home continent in LoU and there was a player there with lots of letters in his name, so Aj's bitterness may be partly my fault. Sorry everyone.


Posted By: Djehuti
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 22:24
" As one who has consistently suffered at the hands of the land claimers for daring to even speak up, I can attest to the idea that it's not been, for me, just a question of freedom of settlement, but even one of freedom of speech. "  -  ajqtrz

Perhaps this has more to do with you - the relationships youve made over your time in the game and the way you've spoken to people - and less to do with what topics you've been addressing? I am aware of a number of players in BL who have been openly objective towards the idea of land claims, yet have not been subject to hostilities in any way.


" even the most flimsy of excuses will be used to go to war" - ajqtrz

I'm somewhat new to this game, but i recall a story about a huge war that started over a trove mine far before BL or land claims. Perhaps I heard the story wrong tho.

As far as your third point, this also doesnt seem to directly relate to the topic of land claims - alliances have had the option and sometimes chose to do this long before the LC topic.

Your forth point, however, I would be more prone to agree with. Personally, I do like the idea of land claims to an extent, but it is an idea that can easily be abused. I would suggest some sort of agreement needs to be reached as far as how much land a single alliance can "claim", though to do this would require a lot of people with different opinions coming together, so I don't know that it would be possible.

I would also point out, however, that these same actions you are arguing against could very easily take place without the presence of land claims. One does not need a claim to decide they don't want such-and-such alliance in a certain area near them. As AJ pointed out, wars can be started over any reason. I think too many people are too quick to blame the LC movement for their troubles, rather than admitting that maybe these conflicts are taking place because some players join games like this (games that are largely centered around warfare options) because they like to play war. And that's not a wrong or evil choice - if the game mechanics support it, then it is obviously a feasible path to take in a game.

Another point to consider: perhaps if so many players weren't perpetuating an us VS them stance (LC VS anti-LC), then maybe the LC alliances would be more focused on fighting each other, instead of allying together against the anti-LC opposition. While not all LC alliances have confederations, it does seem a vast majority of them have unofficially agreed to leave each other be in favor of a more united defense against those they view as a threat to their way of game play. The anti-LCers seem to have lumped all the alliances who have LCs together, and as a result, the LCers have a common enemy - without that common enemy, I image LCs would have progressed a lot differently. But, this is of course merely speculation and opinion.


Hmm... i didn't really mean to write so much - it kinda got away from me there. Anyway, that's just another 2 cents among a pile of pennies.




Posted By: Tink XX
Date Posted: 07 May 2016 at 00:15
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:



1) If you lead an alliance, wake up.  Your alliance is needed.  You are more responsible for the health of Illyriad more than those of us who are small.  When you wake up a year from now and some "aggressive game player" is at your door, it may be too late. 

2) If you do not lead an alliance and you can't get them to MOVE, move yourself.  TUF or any other alliance who is willing to move against "aggressive game play" will welcome you.  If you don't like TUF or can't find one that you do like, form your own and then recruit.



Yay, let the server war begin! Star
P.S. Not gonna happen ofc. But nice try.


Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 07 May 2016 at 03:24
comparing LoU to illyriad is misleading at best. LoU was a finite game designed to be won, and won militarily. it developed the sort of player who was good at doing that. you get what you reward. it neither was nor was intended to be a sandbox.



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