Print Page | Close Window

Yarr/Tuf

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance int the Broken Lands, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6888
Printed Date: 19 Oct 2018 at 05:46
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Yarr/Tuf
Posted By: Solanar
Subject: Yarr/Tuf
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 01:01
So here we are. I don't know how anyone else feels about it, but I am expecting a lot of fun.

I could give a dozen reasons, but individually each has already been resolved. What we end with, is that in the 6 months of YARR! nearly every time we've been expecting hostile action, it was Tuf on the other side. Having an LC alliance and an anti-LC alliance sharing Pawa just isn't working. The history between Death and Tuf was not able to be erased with a new ticker and new leadership. There are large personalities on both sides of this, and every time there is conflict we have people on both sides threatening or calling for war. 

It appears to be inevitable. 

I'm not good at plotting. We've had less than a day between the decision to go to war and the dec. 

See you in illy.



Replies:
Posted By: Bill Cipher
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 01:19
Good luck to both alliances...

-------------
d-a-r-o-r-w-o pb wlph kdv frph wr exuq. l lqyrnh wkh dqflhqw srzhu wkdw l pdb uhwxuq


Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 02:13
Blah blah blah 


Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 04:12
My victory is inevitable.

-------------
I am not amused.


Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 05:26
Solanar,

What, exactly, is meant by "isn't working?" when you speak of both sides being in Pawa?  Have there been skirmishes?  Have TUF members been sending diplos at Yarr members in Pawa?  Are we harvesting where where you don't wish us to do so?  What, exactly, isn't working?

Making a claim means you have evidence.  You say that "in the 6 months of YARR! nearly every time we've been expecting hostile action it was TUF on the other side" but why were you expecting hostile action?  Has TUF done things indicating they were about to attack?  Have they said things to that end?  If so, give me your evidence and let's sort this out.  Perhaps somebody just wants you to think TUF is  to get you and you are being manipulated.  I'm pretty high in the pecking order of TUF and I can assure you that nobody is speaking of attacking your or has in the last three months I've been there.  And I have access to EVERY discussion forum and chat we use. 

So from where are you drawing your evidence?  

You say you could give a dozen reasons but that everyone has been resolved.  Isn't that the definition of "getting along?" 

So let's be a bit rational here and you give me your evidence and I'll present mine, lest we enter into a war needlessly.

AJ


Posted By: viperone
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 07:01
If this was about Pawa, then why have 3 of your Pawa members just dropped out of your alliance?
There is no LC in Pawa: and Curm and Muad razed Krato's (.mongo) for lying about that in the forum posts (refer to Curmudgeon's post last month ordering Krato's out of Pawa).
Seems Illy is full of lies and ghost troops.  Also appears that YARR is a pawn for Elgea influences.  Be that as it may the game goes forward and many a great alliance have been born from the ashes of defeat.  Perhaps the best example of that is SIN.  So since truth is lacking lets play>



Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 09:28
My understanding is that SIN rose not from the ashes but from a mixture of superior players from past defeated alliances, past victorious alliances, and excellent new players. Step up to the plate, face your enemy with courage, never whine in the forums, and you guys might earn some respect. Tuf wanted a fight and now they have it. Remember it is not the overwhelming size of your enemy that counts, but how you totally out play and crush them that does. Look at Shark/ VIC/ Unibrow as an example.

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Urian
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 12:57
The evidence is TUF towns in YARR! territory.


Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 13:02
I second what Grag said. It isn't impossible for smaller alliances like TUF to punch above their weight class in Illyriad, because such a big part of warfare is sovereignty (and being able to replenish troop loss quickly). Many big alliances have glimmering legendary cities and sov 5, but it's all about food and big population. If you look at the map, TUF seems like they have clusters of cities with good sov, and I think that for them it's a big equalizer. If they can execute on good battle planning, then it can be a good fight. If not, then it's going to be a mess.

-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/263810" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 14:21
Jejune, you forget that, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, the bigger alliance wins.  Are you trying to suggest that Yarr isn't as well run an organization as TUF, and that by simply "out general-ing" them they can be easily defeated?  Do you really think a big alliance got that way be being stupid and not having the ability to fight well?  Which of the top 10 alliances would you put in the category of being inexperienced or incapable of defending themselves well? Or attacking well?  The problem is you assume that there are superior techniques of warfare in Illy that somehow the big alliances have missed and that we, a small one, can use against them.  Do send me an IGM with a list of those secret techniques as I could use them now.

As for whining, it's not whining to ask for the reasons for the attacks.  It's the first step on the road to a diplomatic resolution.  So what, exactly, has TUF DONE to provoke this attack?  One player says we are in "Yarr's" territory.  The last I read it was concluded that the territory is NOT Yarr's and that they have no formal claim to it.  Of course there are some bitter ex-DEATH member who may disagree, but when did DEATH take over Yarr?  Another memo I didn't receive, I guess.

In my opinion it's that some of the Yarr members (a small minority no doubt) got their little feelings hurt a few months ago and don't have the stomach to re-form their own alliance and stand on their own two feet.  So they hide in the folds of a bigger alliance and provoke them to attack without cause or need.  Some people are just too good at playing others for a fool and getting them to do the work they are too scared and unable to do themselves.

AJ


Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 14:56
ajqtrz, I think you should take a deep breath, count to 10, and go back and read my post, since I think you missed the crux of my argument. And my statement was neither pro- nor anti-YARR or TUF, for that matter.

If you look at what I said, I was making the argument that, in my opinion and experience in fighting wars, sovereignty plays a key role and can lead to a small alliance defeating a larger opponent. You said, "all things being equal," but all things are not equal, and the fact is, in spite of being outnumbered in terms of towns and players, TUF has a better sov-to-town ratio than YARR. YARR only has 5.7 squares claimed per town, versus TUF, which has 10.16 claimed -- nearly double. There are a lot of small, sov-less towns in YARR. I'm not putting YARR down by saying this -- both alliances are still growing alliances.

This is one metric that is an indicator of war-readiness. 

If you need an example of where a smaller alliance has competed well against a larger alliance, you need only look to SIN's current war, where we successfully fought against the #1 and #4 alliances in the game (according to land) when we were originally ranked #14. In this case, both SHARK and VIC had superior sov, player counts, and towns, however, I would suspect that much of their sov was food-based in order to support large cities. SIN's sov is entirely troop-focused. So, while our opponents had large standing armies, we were probably able to our produce them.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

The problem is you assume that there are superior techniques of warfare in Illy that somehow the big alliances have missed and that we, a small one, can use against them.  Do send me an IGM with a list of those secret techniques as I could use them now.

I don't assume it -- I know it to be true. In addition to having superior troop sov, developing winning war strategies at the strategic and tactical levels, and being able to execute them, are major equalizing factors that can allow a smaller alliance like TUF to compete against what at face value appears to be a much more powerful adversary. Our alliance has assembled some of the best war minds in the game (of which I do not claim to be one), and that is a decided advantage. Moreover, every one in SIN executes our war plans superbly well, and by out-executing our opponents, we're able to win.

As a now-seasoned warrior, I'd like to think that your leader Agalloch himself would agree with this -- just look at his cities and sov, he clearly is already a player who understands this.

 


-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/263810" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 14:57
Actually AJ, best you learn from lessons. Classic example is Shark and VIC. Once number 1 and 4 respectively are what now? They went up against an upstart alliance just featuring in the top 20. Its all about generals and how you fight. Like I said earlier, stop whining and looking for excuses. You are based in YARR land and if your alliance wants to remain there you will have to fight. Other option is just move. Ball is in your court.

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Urian
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 15:39
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

In my opinion it's that some of the Yarr members (a small minority no doubt) got their little feelings hurt a few months ago and don't have the stomach to re-form their own alliance and stand on their own two feet.  So they hide in the folds of a bigger alliance and provoke them to attack without cause or need.  Some people are just too good at playing others for a fool and getting them to do the work they are too scared and unable to do themselves.

AJ

Opinions are like armpits, everyone has a couple and they stink.


Posted By: Urian
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 15:46
Maybe we should claim Almenly too, while we are at it.


Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 16:26
Originally posted by Urian Urian wrote:

Maybe we should claim Almenly too, while we are at it.


With my small enclave in Almenly and the rest of Almenly already Yarr dominated it would appear the 6 attacks you've already launched against my cities are attempting that already.  This just reflects the "aggressive game play" strategy of some alliances and thus proves that they have no intention of leaving anybody alone until they have taken over the entire playground and everybody is subservient to them.  So much for a free Illy.  I do think you know the word for that type of behavior on the playground so I'll not repeat it here.

AJ


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 16:34
Good stuff YARR. If you claim it and can keep it, it is yours. AJ, you need to stop whining, leave the military alliance you are not suited for, and move your cities to Elgea where your gameplay style is better suited. The rest of TuF seem to have stopped moaning and hopefully are getting ready for a good fight.

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 16:37
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:


In my opinion it's that some of the Yarr members (a small minority no doubt) got their little feelings hurt a few months ago and don't have the stomach to re-form their own alliance and stand on their own two feet.  So they hide in the folds of a bigger alliance and provoke them to attack without cause or need.  Some people are just too good at playing others for a fool and getting them to do the work they are too scared and unable to do themselves.

AJ


Well I was going to stay out of it, but this is nonsense.

Kratos led Death into an idiot war against TUF while both Duran (then The Honey Badger) and I were known to be away from the game. Aga was very gracious in letting Death off the hook with a white peace on our return. We openly acknowledged that at the time and continue to do so.


Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 16:45
Jejune.  Thanks for pointing one of the ways TUF is superior at this time.  So we have more sov per city.  Let's do some math: 175 cities with 10 squares of sov on average = 1750 sov squares.  395 cities with 5 squares of sov on average = 1925.  I think I said, "ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL?"  If you are going to start using math at least do the math.  Furthermore, I'm quite certain you know that you can ADD sov.  You can add squares and raise their levels.  As an experienced player you also know that if you have 395 cities you can ADD more sov than an alliance with 175 cities.  Are you trying to say Yarr won't add sov?  I thought not.  So, starting out roughly equal and having a lot more cities to which to add sov means that, in the long run, the bigger alliance will end up with more sov.  Right?  Sometimes I wonder if people just pick numbers to re-enforce their point of view and pretend things just aren't what they are.  Yarr is a lot lager than TUF.  Yarr has more cities and more sov.  ALL THINGS ARE NOT EQUAL.  And pretending otherwise to justify the war is just being disingenuous. 

I do recognize that your post did not intend to take sides...but by justifying the war as even a mildly "fair fight" you do take sides.  What you ought to be doing is finding out the exact and explicit justification Yarr is using.  You will find they have a more flimsy excuse than dLords.  In other words, they have next to no reason to do this.  The justice of a war is not in the power of the sides but in the strength of their arguments for making war.  Yarr has no reasons to give and thus, gives none that any rational payer would recognize.  In fact, one of their players said to me they "feel" justified.  Whoopee for their "feelings," now give me their reasons.  And if you can find no reason for the aggression, I invite you to join us and fight for a free Illy where wars have to be founded on just reasons.

So this war is unjust and unjustified.  I keep challenging anybody to give any real reason for the attacks and so far, other than the claim that Pawa is also a Yarr claimed land, I find nothing.  Not even a snippet of AC where somebody makes some off hand joke about taking some mine from Yarr.  At least dlords had that flimsy excuse, as patently lame as it is.

AJ



Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 17:13
AJ, you seem keen to moan and do the numbers. Shark and VIC outnumbered SIN in all aspects and yet got totally crushed. Again I urge you to stop whining, suck it up and either fight or make a run for Elgea. Looking for a reason why people attack you in a war game is the same as standing on the beach screaming at the waves to stop destroying your sand castle you built at the low tide mark.

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Urian
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 17:14
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

I invite you to join us and fight for a free Illy where wars have to be founded on just reasons.
So this war is unjust and unjustified.  I find nothing.  At least dlords had that flimsy excuse, as patently lame as it is.

Nothing has to be founded on "just reasons". It's a game. 
And that would be a just enough reason for those who want play the game . You are just adding the drama.


Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 17:19
Stay on topic and do not troll this thread. I will simply remove the posts and if it continues, ban the person who continues to do both.

Carry on.


Rikoo




-------------
Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk


Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 17:26
Personally I can't see any trolling.

AJ is welcome to ask Agalloch to label him as a non-combatant and I'm sure (though I do not speak for Yarr! leadership), that such a request would be considered.

Ohh, wait, Aga already said there would be no non-combatants in this war and forgot to tell his alliance that.


Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 17:54
Originally posted by Curmudgeon Curmudgeon wrote:

Personally I can't see any trolling.

That's because I am doing my job. :)


Rikoo




-------------
Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk


Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 17:59
AJ, you're obviously free to believe that I'm way off-base in my opinions. We'll let the gaming community decide based on what they've witnessed over the past 7 months in the SIN v. Unbow war, as well as wars past where smaller alliances such as ~NC~ have managed to successfully fight larger alliances. Again, I cannot imagine that your leader Agalloch would agree with what you're saying, given that he is indeed a student of Illy warfare and knows that superior sov, strategy, tactical superiority, and execution are all potentially equalizers. 

Agalloch knows what he is doing -- why don't you give him the benefit of the doubt?


-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/263810" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 18:27
My alliance knows to roll with the punches, AJ is still learning ...   FYI maybe you guys can inform your members you declared war also so they ll stop messaging us and asking why we have attacks otw.


Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 18:36
Gwen and Dante Val had an incident over harvesting. Gwen apparently expressed her viewpoints aggressively. I don't know what was said. I don't know that this is the reason, but Dante Val has been uncharacteristically silent in AC for days since. I was not approached directly by Tuf over the incident.

Curm and Dsasa's sitter had an altercation. Curm acted aggressively - my understanding is that he had identified an inactive and sold the intel somehow, then after accepting the money, a Dsasa siege landed a few days later, and he cleared the siege from the town. Given the history, Aga threatened to newb ring Curm over it, assuming it was an intentional provocation. It may have been, or it could have been the rum. Curm and I share a love of the drink. I was not approached directly by Tuf about the incident.

There was another recent incident with one of our allies and ajqtrz. I am not up on the details, but had dozens of IGMs forwarded to me about it, and a request to be prepared should the issue escalate. I suppose this could be considered escalation by me.

Reports from various sources indicated that Aga was aware of and in support of Dsasa's attack on Yarr. Aga has denied it. I was not provided chat logs as evidence, so no reason to favor one report over another, except that I had 3 different sources saying they had the intel from (a) Tuf member(s).

Various chatlogs and IGM threads have been forwarded to me, some with anti-LC plots and plans that didn't mention Yarr specifically, and others with disparaging remarks made about Yarr and about former Death. Every time, based on the portions sent to me, it looked like Aga was ready to go to war at the drop of a hat.

I haven't the time or inclination to dig them all up. I think my reputation will be sufficient for most people that I am not going to war for no reason. 

At the end of the day, it provides a shadow hanging over the alliance. My free time has already been reduced, and will be reduced further once I start my new position, and it seemed incumbent on me to deal with this now, rather than risking the escalation coming after we had burned troops in Koda's tourney, or after my play time reduced to a point where I was unable to deal with any in game issues in a timely fashion.

But it's a general attitude that Tuf (as embodied by Aga) and the general membership within Yarr both seem eager to resolve disputes in a military fashion. So far Aga has calmed down after the fact, and so far my membership accepts my word when I say issues are resolved. I can't count on either continuing forever.

I have put a lot of effort into trying to dissolve the lines between our merged alliances. Yarr, Hansa, Shu-Han, The Librarians, and Death - I want everyone to just be Pirates and not internally separate themselves based on prior alliances. A limited number of people within the alliance are less able to let the past go. Quite a number of others, based on reactions as much as statements made, don't seem able to see the difference.

We had an incident early on where someone interacted with me based on who Hansa was - and I responded by daring them to go to war. 

Cheers,
RanaloSolanaR


Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 19:11
As far as dog piles go - we are not attacking Tuf *with* DLord. We are not attacking Tuf *because* DLord is attacking. It's more that we are attacking *in spite of* the existing conflict.

Belegar has a good intel system. He contacted me (very) shortly before the war dec to ask me to wait, to not start anything until they were done. Given my personal circumstances out of game, I did not feel that I could delay.

It doesn't change anything functionally, but it was not my wish to pile on. My time lines are simply not that flexible. 


Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 19:24
You're missing a few things:

Jax making a private conversation between Jax and Dsasa public.

Recruiting members directly from The Unfettered roster.

Negotiating a confederation with Deathmongers during the Deathmongers vs The Unfettered and The Unrepentant Incident.

Sending at least one member to participate in the Deathmongers vs The Unfettered and The Unrepentant Incident.

Having moles in The Unfettered for a sizable amount of time.

You completely ignored the Treaty of Tuna after the Deathmongers vs The Unfettered and The Unrepentant Incident, adding a "grandfather clause" specifically for The Unfettered and The Unrepentant cities, granting them an exemption to the Deathmongers land claim if they had been within the land claim at the time of its formation. This included the right to harvest materials more than three squares away from the city, something those cities had not been able to do beforehand.

You gave Dwarvern Lords a highly edited transcript of an alliance chat log (something that shouldn't be available to the public) that did not even resemble the actual chat log.

At this point, this cannot even be considered a war between two different alliances. So much of your alliance is composed of our former members this is a civil war.

I can't wait for you to drag more of your confederates into this mess.


-------------
I am not amused.


Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 20:16
As always Karl, your statements are related to the truth, while missing the point entirely. 

No confed with Death during your incident was negotiated. Rygar (the then leader of Death) sent the confed offer without talking to me about it, and it was not accepted during the hostilities.

The member who went "from Yarr" to Death during the incident was actually a Shu-Han member who was in Yarr temporarily for our war of walls with RE. The merger with Shu-Han happened nearly a month after the incident was over.

I have no moles. I've spent a large portion of my illy career offering advice and help to players in GC, and so people sometimes tell me about things they think I will find useful. 

I have no knowledge of the "treaty of tuna" so I don't imagine that can be called "ignoring."

etc ad nauseam 


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 20:59



Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 21:13
I hope the tin foil hat helps you sleep at night. 


Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 21:26
LOL @ "Treaty of Tuna." I like that!

-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/263810" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 21:33
Tin Foil hat, nah, just more like being able to add 2+2. Timing and how things went down, and nothing you have said leads me to anything different. 

After talking to Belegar, I believe it is more opportunism on the part of YARR, not conspiring between the two alliances. 


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 21:50
I want to make something clear, my issue is not with DLORDS vs TUF, my issue is how YARR joined this war. 


Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 21:51
Demdigs, Aga will likely recall a convo in GC about a week ago when I jokingly said that that I'd offered Dlords a lot of gold to stand aside and let me at him. Fiona. offered to outbid me and is currently in TUF.

Friends can disagree and fight hard one day and be allies another. There is no conspiracy to be seen here. (I do not claim Aga as a friend, but do respect him as an active player)


Posted By: ajqtrz
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 21:59
Originally posted by Urian Urian wrote:

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

I invite you to join us and fight for a free Illy where wars have to be founded on just reasons.
So this war is unjust and unjustified.  I find nothing.  At least dlords had that flimsy excuse, as patently lame as it is.

Nothing has to be founded on "just reasons". It's a game. 
And that would be a just enough reason for those who want play the game . You are just adding the drama.


The fact is people DO try to justify their actions and that is why justice matters, even in a game.  Remember, it's not an avatar you are attacking, it's the hard work and creativity of a real person.  Even in Illy people tend to align themselves with others based partly on who they think is justified in their actions.  So justice, in spite of your apparent desire to have it matter not, does matter.   

If I go to the store and buy a game of "Monopoly" it's just a game, isn't it?  And it remains "just a game" as long as it's in the box.  But when we engage in playing the game, we are using a game to accomplish something...usually fun.  If we took the game out of the box and did nothing it would still be a game, but no pleasure would be derived from it.  Real people have to play the game for it to be anything other than "just a game."  And if you join me at the game and I played it with a different set of rules, rules that put you at a severe dis-advantage, you'd not think that just and would probably actually say, "that's unfair."  And you might stop playing the game if I insisted on my rules.  So justice, fairness, and all that DO matter and pretending otherwise is a sad exercise is self-deception.

But to make another point, if we decide that we want to play the game a certain way...perhaps with clubs we use whenever we get upset at another player....we are free to do that, are we not?  If we agree that the "Free Parking" space will receive all the penalty's of the game and that if you land on it you can collect those penalty's, we can do that, can't we?  In other words, "it a game" is true, but it's also a game that can be modified so that we increase (or decrease I suppose) our enjoyment.  In Illy the game is "just a game" only so long as nobody is playing.  Once we start playing it's not "just a game" it's a social interaction using the mechanics of the game to govern our actions within the game and even in the "meta-game".  So it's a game plus social interactions.  And any extra-game rules must be negotiated by the parties playing the game, right?  It's patently unfair to allow one set of players to dictate the rules to the others.

So here's the thing.  The point of a contest is that it be fair.  Nobody derives much pleasure from seeing a team obviously out of their league get crushed.  We have an innate sense that in a game the "playing field" should be level to some degree or other, and go through great effort in many games, to make it so.  If you simply allow larger forces in Illy to willy-nilly attack whomever they wish without just cause, how is that making the game fair?  How is that making the game more enjoyable to more people?  It isn't and you yourself know it isn't.

But perhaps you are Darwinian at heart.  Perhaps you think, too bad for the little guy.  If so think of this.  When alliances in other sandbox games are allowed to run over small players and alliances "just because" the game suffers, the number of players playing suffers, the revenues suffer, and the game goes "good bye."  Then nobody gets the fun.  So even if you are Darwinian you might consider some restraint a good thing...especially restraint of actions and attitudes which have proven to drive away players.  The most fun for the most people should be our motto and what we strive for in our actions.  In the end you have to balance the health of the game against your own pleasure. 

In any case, I think most players agree with me regarding the need for a war to be just (i.e.in response to a real threat or provocation) as evidenced that most alliances, including the current ones, are attempting to justify imposing war on TUF.  The discussion is not about if a war is just, but what constitutes THESE wars being so.  For if they are not, then the community of Illy needs to decide if they care about the game or not, and do something about it.  So I keep asking and waiting for a real answer as to how or where TUF has threatened or harmed either dLords or Yarr.  So far the answers are pretty thin to non-existent.

AJ






Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 23:14
AJ, word of advice. To have any hope of "I think most players agree with me" even having a chance, put it in the first paragraph and stop writing after first paragraph.


Posted By: Princess Botchface
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 23:31
....Karl.... I am not "sent" anywhere, I go wherever I damn well please.

I was one of the founding members of Shu-han along with Liu Bei (Eternal Fire, Attila the Hun, Flavius Aetius, etc.), 2nd command while he was around, leader when he left. I stepped down due to RL pressures and several of members of Shu-han went to RE and Yarr! for a WoW. Those pressures died down and I joined Yarr as a late entrant into the WoW with intention to return to Shu-han.

After TUF had declared on Death (may have been the other way around, I don't remember), Mongo/Rygar, then called Kratos, ran around seeking help from everyone he could think of. I decided to leave Yarr! and join Death for the war and I stayed there for the duration of it and a little while afterwards. Some time later I had a long conversation with Ranalos, we talked about his vision for Yarr among other things and I agreed to join him. My first officer was also impressed by Yarr during the time he spent there and he convinced the rest of Shu-han to go along with the merger.

I am not some pawn of Ranalos or anyone else, neither is anyone in Yarr!.

I don't know where you guys get this nonsense about a Dlords conspiracy, the only thing we have in common is an enemy. I spent a lot of time with Eternal Fire/Attila the Hun/Flavius Aetius/Liu Bei (the list is longer but I can't remember them all), I know what a backroom deal, political manipulator looks like. I've also spent a good deal of time talking to Ranalos, he's just not the type to pull this sort of thing that you're claiming he's pulling. The reasons that he gave for pushing what was an inevitable war forward are consistent with what I know about his personality and personal life through conversations within and without the game.

It would have been better to wait until Dlords got sick of waiting for two weeks for sieges to arrive and called for peace, but it really wouldn't have changed much except this one issue that to an outsider looks like a bigger thing than it actually is.

On one final note... AJ stop spamming with that nonsense please, thank you. Although I do find it amusing that you've joined an active BL military alliance and have taken part in aggressive military operations yourself and yet you still spew the same sophistry that you have since the days of STOMPS.


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 08:40
I am giving Fair warning to people, My issue is not with Dlords and I will not target Dlords, my issue is with how YARR has joined this war, DLORDS vs TUF was a fair fight 1 on 1. So if you are in YARR and not going to fight i want to know now, but if you target me after stating you are not fighting all bets are off, I am giving members of YARR 36 Hours from noon server time Thursday a chance to tell me they are not a fighter, if no response by 0001 server time Saturday morning I will presume you are a combatant and act accordingly. Until that time the only offensive action i will take on YARR will be scouting. 


Posted By: viperone
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 08:54
Justa quick reply to this post.  Curm keeps copies of all pc's and undoubltly has a large file.  I doubt very much that he has shared my conversations and reassurances to him.  As a leader. perhaps you should ask him for those conversations, they might be enlightening.  The Unfettered has two founders, one not so quick to anger and a tad bit more diplomatic.  When I give my word to someone I do not break it.  There are those here who do prefer the 'drama' and twisting of the truth and rapidly forget that we gave a 'white peace' since this is a game and should be fun to play.  If it isn't then perhaps those 'players' need to move on to Candy Crush or Farmville.


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 09:58
Originally posted by demdigs demdigs wrote:

I am giving Fair warning to people, My issue is not with Dlords and I will not target Dlords, my issue is with how YARR has joined this war, DLORDS vs TUF was a fair fight 1 on 1. So if you are in YARR and not going to fight i want to know now, but if you target me after stating you are not fighting all bets are off, I am giving members of YARR 36 Hours from noon server time Thursday a chance to tell me they are not a fighter, if no response by 0001 server time Saturday morning I will presume you are a combatant and act accordingly. Until that time the only offensive action i will take on YARR will be scouting. 

LOL, you should not be so fast to make threats when you have multiple towns on bad terrain and a long way from help. 

No one has ever seen you fight or plan anything. I had to look at your history to see if you were in the great war and im still not sure you took part, probably cos you were just cannon fodder and did what you were ordered.  Based on your city placement, you did not pay much attention to how the destruction was caused. 

Should be a good fight, its only 2 on 1. If tuf have their act together, they can do this. 





Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 10:02
I am not making threats, I am stating that YARR chose to fight TUF when TUF was already fighting DLORDS instead of making it a 1 on 1 fight. Which is not a fair way to fight. 


Posted By: Hyrdmoth
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 10:23
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

If I go to the store and buy a game of "Monopoly" it's just a game, isn't it?
Monopoly isn't a game! It's a bitterness creation device.


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 10:39
Originally posted by demdigs demdigs wrote:

I am not making threats, I am stating that YARR chose to fight TUF when TUF was already fighting DLORDS instead of making it a 1 on 1 fight. Which is not a fair way to fight. 

I dont see what the issue is here, firstly as part of the GA, there was plenty of piliing on going around, and you took part in that. So your stance here is a little hypocritical. 

Secondly, where was your outrage when VIC declared on SIN? I did not see it, nor was it reported to me, so picking and choosing what you think is unfair rather than a principle of a 2:1 is also hypocritical. 

Dont be surprised if Yarr turn their attentions on you and wipe your towns out. You have high pop 7 fooders with a few on bad terrain. All that Yarr have to do is withstand your initial standing army onslaught and you are toast. 

If you send armies out to attack yarr or assist tuf, you cant move that town and you are pinned. If you are scouting yarr, you cant move your town and are pinned. Basically, your impact in this war will be minimal because as soon as you twitch, you can be removed from BL. 

If you are going to play as a warrior, you really should have thought about it a little more. 


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 11:50
I wasn't part of the grand alliance. I was part of roads during the huge war and did not participate. Additionally when comrade general stated that he would kill women and children i refused to support an alliance that protects someone like that. I have stated that in gc numerous of times.


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 11:56
By the way I was inactive most of that war because of real life. So if you really wanted to try to pin something on me like that at least get the basics right


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 12:44
Originally posted by demdigs demdigs wrote:

I am giving Fair warning to people, My issue is not with Dlords and I will not target Dlords, my issue is with how YARR has joined this war, DLORDS vs TUF was a fair fight 1 on 1. So if you are in YARR and not going to fight i want to know now, but if you target me after stating you are not fighting all bets are off, I am giving members of YARR 36 Hours from noon server time Thursday a chance to tell me they are not a fighter, if no response by 0001 server time Saturday morning I will presume you are a combatant and act accordingly. Until that time the only offensive action i will take on YARR will be scouting. 


I guess seeing as how it is now ok to feel the need to complain and threaten alliances when the whole server remained silent when VIC piled on SIN I will offer my armies to YARR to help hit hostile camps from people not at war with them. The same applies to TuF. Just send me a message with the co-ords and I will launch my armies

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 12:59
I seem to remember death and another alliance both joining sin and gateway during the war. Death then left and that other alliance is still with them. Besides I have given my reasons for staying silent on sin


Posted By: Malek
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 13:10
Demdigs, 
This is great, the fact you have never really fought in a war and are issuing threats about attacking players that have actually fought is hilarious. Aga is a new player to the game and is far more capable than you, and at least aga gets in there and has a crack. You are going to get curb stomped and its going to be funny to watch. 

I have not heard your reasons for staying silent on SIN, please refresh them. Though staying silent is probably a good idea. 

As for players moving in and out of alliances, both sides have done it, shark called an entire alliance in, tried to get others to join, VIC even brought in players from ABSA. 


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 13:41
16:42] Remember, when in doubt, kill the elves! [16:42] KILL THEM ALL!! [16:43] are you already researching anything else drax? [16:43] Leave NONE alive! [16:43] NOT EVEN ONE [16:43] hi how is everyone doing [16:43] Especially NOT the women and children! [16:44] Another elf!

[15:34]<Demdigs> [15:36] Yay, another human! [15:36] Comrade Mars, come join the anti-elf revolution! [15:36] not just nasty old elf's eh comrade [15:36] No, we have to kill them all. [15:36] ALL OF THEM [15:37] Even the women and children


Comrade General has said this in global chat, by saying that he supports murdering women and children, I will not support an alliance that not only protects someone who thinks it's ok to murder women and children, but enables him by SIN's protection, Since he has sin's protection he feels he can say anything and get away with it, so therefore, sin has decided that it supports murdering women and children, In the court of law you could be charged with accessory to the crime. That is why i will not support sin, it supports murdering women and children. 



Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 13:45
[16:42]<Comrade General> Remember, when in doubt, kill the elves!
[16:42]<Sir Angus> KILL THEM ALL!!
[16:43]<Sir Angus> are you already researching anything else drax?
[16:43]<Comrade General> Leave NONE alive!
[16:43]<Sir Angus> NOT EVEN ONE
[16:43]<tasha> hi how is everyone doing
[16:43]<Comrade General> Especially NOT the women and children!
[15:36]<Comrade General> Yay, another human! 
[15:36]<Comrade General> Comrade Mars, come join the anti-elf revolution! 
[15:36]<Mars> not just nasty old elf's eh comrade
[15:36]<Comrade General> No, we have to kill them all.
[15:36]<Comrade General> ALL OF THEM 
[15:37]<Comrade General> Even the women and children. 

Comrade General has said this in global chat, by saying that he supports murdering women and children, I will not support an alliance that not only protects someone who thinks it's ok to murder women and children, but enables him by SIN's protection, Since he has sin's protection he feels he can say anything and get away with it, so therefore, sin has decided that it supports murdering women and children, In the court of law you could be charged with accessory to the crime. That is why i will not support sin, it supports murdering women and children. 

[/QUOTE]


Posted By: Dungshoveleux
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 14:05
If I might make an observation...

As yet neither women nor children are currently either diplomatic or military units (maybe some amazon npcs? but I digress).

From a moral point of view, I'd agree that such actions are reprehensible but I'm not sure what the game relevance is if such units don't exist and therefore can't be killed and everybody knows that.

Baldrick has always wanted to buy the largest turnip in the whole wide world of Illyriad, but until the devs humour him sufficiently to create a new kind of rare herb, I fear his cunning wishes may all come to nought.


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 15:27
Ok, as you like to take things totally out of context and try and slander players playing an elf hating role in GC I think it is time to sort this out ingame. Best move your cities. They are not going to be around long.

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 15:33
Being that there is no units in the game makes him saying it even more pointless and goes to the point why he said it. There are enough people that probably have had that affect their real lives in such a serious way that it shouldn't even be brought up. 


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 15:35
So gragnog, in order to shut someone up that is speaking the truth and trying to stop someone from saying something that has real life implications you lash out and attack. Goes to show how right I am in this. 


Posted By: Princess Botchface
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 15:40
Originally posted by demdigs demdigs wrote:

[16:42]<Comrade General> Remember, when in doubt, kill the elves!
[16:42]<Sir Angus> KILL THEM ALL!!
[16:43]<Sir Angus> are you already researching anything else drax?
[16:43]<Comrade General> Leave NONE alive!
[16:43]<Sir Angus> NOT EVEN ONE
[16:43]<tasha> hi how is everyone doing
[16:43]<Comrade General> Especially NOT the women and children!
[15:36]<Comrade General> Yay, another human! 
[15:36]<Comrade General> Comrade Mars, come join the anti-elf revolution! 
[15:36]<Mars> not just nasty old elf's eh comrade
[15:36]<Comrade General> No, we have to kill them all.
[15:36]<Comrade General> ALL OF THEM 
[15:37]<Comrade General> Even the women and children. 

Comrade General has said this in global chat, by saying that he supports murdering women and children, I will not support an alliance that not only protects someone who thinks it's ok to murder women and children, but enables him by SIN's protection, Since he has sin's protection he feels he can say anything and get away with it, so therefore, sin has decided that it supports murdering women and children, In the court of law you could be charged with accessory to the crime. That is why i will not support sin, it supports murdering women and children. 



We orcs have another word for elf children: Veal

When we die, if we've been good and killed many elves and torched their towns and villages, then we get to go to the Big Elf BBQ in the Sky. All the elves you can eat for all eternity! Grilled elves, sauteed elves, elves benedict, elf fried elves, elf fillets in rum sauce (for us pirate orcs), elf bone gelatin desserts, there's even Kosher and Halal options and a live elf tank where you can choose an elf to be freshly slaughtered and served to you!

Of course you wouldn't understand, but we're used to this sort of religious persecution from your kind.


Posted By: Skybreaker
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 17:14
Ill be totally honest, I think youve sort of taken that out of contents Demdigs. Its clearly a part of the RP, similar to the fact that all races r inferior to dwarves (although women and children are a different subject). You made it seem like he said RL women and children should die in GC.


Posted By: GM Rikoo
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 17:16
Discuss RP in another thread. After this post, I will remove any off topic posts and might ban the user if they continue to post them.


Rikoo




-------------
Illyriad Community Manager / Public Relations / community@illyriad.co.uk


Posted By: Jax
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 01:09
Last i checked, playing the game doesn't need morals. Well maybe there's a limit...:P Might as well not have a war button for alliances though according to demdigs logic if im following it right. irl, Just take the U.S as an example and its use of power to pointlessly overthrow dictatorships while killing millions of civilians in the process (for democracy, yay! very comparable to andrew jackson's logic of "democracy"  the irony!). Point is im not saying you have to agree with it, im saying stuff you may find bad happens and it just needs to be accepted. 
That being said-There are reasons for yarr's war with tuf, thats all the public info players reading this forum need to know. I love aj's heckling responses to the war declaration, but i cant read them due to drowsiness. 


-------------


Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 18:39
Yarr are continuing to target the largest and the loudest. TUF are continuing their usual form of attacking the smallest and least active.

TUF keep banging on about getting dogpiled in the hope of drumming up support from the many anti-bullying folk in Illy.

To those folk I would remind them that a small gang of bullies picking on the weak and trying to manipulate opinion is much worse than people coming together and attacking the largest bullies head on.

Those who are being swayed by TUF's whining should ponder that before taking sides in a local Broken Lands dispute caused by Aga's mouth continually writing checks that his alliance are then forced to try and honour.


Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 19:17
Originally posted by Curmudgeon Curmudgeon wrote:

Yarr are continuing to target the largest and the loudest. TUF are continuing their usual form of attacking the smallest and least active.

TUF keep banging on about getting dogpiled in the hope of drumming up support from the many anti-bullying folk in Illy.

To those folk I would remind them that a small gang of bullies picking on the weak and trying to manipulate opinion is much worse than people coming together and attacking the largest bullies head on.

Those who are being swayed by TUF's whining should ponder that before taking sides in a local Broken Lands dispute caused by Aga's mouth continually writing checks that his alliance are then forced to try and honour.

Your leadership fully expected these cities to be attacked but neglected to tell the players owning these cities that they were in dangerous areas. It is evident to me that you wanted these cities to be erased so you could cry foul when they were gone. What disgusts me is that you would use your own players as tools to gain a political edge against players you want to stop existing.

Agalloch doesn't treat The Unfettered players as tools, he treats them as people. That's why we stand by him even when things get rough. We don't approve of your plan to wipe us from existence and we don't approve of your policy of using your allies as fodder to be mulched up and turned into newspapers. We like existing. We like people.

Stop acting like the monsters we know you to be.


-------------
I am not amused.


Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 19:36
You mean I am handing your own ass back amd you cant take it!!


Posted By: Jax
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 20:33
Sure. I'm also sure you noticed most of those who didn't wish to participate in the war also left the alliance, same to yours. You can attack our small players and our inactives and get some points on that stupid war score card; but really it doesn't do anything until you take on those that are a real threat to you.    

-------------


Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 21:14
Originally posted by KarL Aegis KarL Aegis wrote:

.

Agalloch doesn't treat The Unfettered players as tools, he treats them as people. That's why we stand by him even when things get rough. We don't approve of your plan to wipe us from existence and we don't approve of your policy of using your allies as fodder to be mulched up and turned into newspapers. We like existing. We like people.

Stop acting like the monsters we know you to be.


I bet Aga and Viper are cringeing right now, waiting for me to wheel out the saves of where Aga didn't give an f*ck if the whole alliance was lost as long as I got newb-ringed.

We have no interest in wiping you or your alliance from existence. No idea where you got that from. The only person who expressed any interest in wiping anyone from existence was Aga threatening me.


Posted By: viperone
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 21:15
One ponders if Curm really believes the dribble that comes off his keyboard.  First YARR dogpiles, then whines that war is not war, and that we are being bullies.  Trash talk is common in Illy war but facts are facts.  The towns we attack are based on isolation, terrain, as well as other factors.  We do not know who in their membership is weak and frail, nor do we, like they have, attack new settlements with a population of 4!!
Finally, their Confed TITAN is actively involved in this war, hence our war declaration on TITAN.  So Curm stop your spin, stop your whining, Illyriad players know the truth when they see it. This is a game afterall, not a ILLY TV soap opera. I leave you with a quote from Buddha: "Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth"
Nuff said....skips merrily away down the bunny trail...lalalala


Posted By: Jax
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 21:31
If ye find us dog piling ya,...well yea. We're "monsters". I can see your logic though Tuf, you are not bullies. We are not condemning you for attacking our inactives and small players. I just find it stupid; something like that wont make yarr call it quits and it doesn't help your predicament.  

-------------


Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 08 May 2016 at 23:15
I am confident Viper that every contribution to this thread by TUF helps open minded people see the right way of the situation more than anything I am writing.

(edit was just to insert word than as my Mother is a retired teacher but still checks up on me)


Posted By: Agalloch
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 00:05
Haha is that all you guys got?
Cause I am at work laughing at the kitchen sink that just flew by my town.


Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 02:44
Titan is just Drax. Who was just in Yarr. So i don't really understand bringing it up like that was remarkable. If Horde, RE, or EE joined in, that would be support. Drax really could have just stayed instead of making another alliance.


Posted By: Princess Botchface
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 03:14
Originally posted by viperone viperone wrote:

We do not know who in their membership is weak and frail, nor do we, like they have, attack new settlements with a population of 4!!


Lol, that was Aj's settlement you're talking about right? I don't believe it was attacked militarily but maybe I just missed it. I believe it was placed in response to the siege on Doralia 1, a tactical choice that begot a tactical response.

I get it, you guys are trying to get support by painting us in a negative light, but you're really going out on a limb here.

And I understand that you can't necessarily know who is weak and who is not just by glancing at their profile but I think a reasonable person could deduce that an account with three small towns probably, just maybe, doesn't have 50k t2 cav in it =P



Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 06:12
I know of small 2k cities with 70k Stalwarts. Does that count?

-------------
Kaggen is my human half


Posted By: Urian
Date Posted: 09 May 2016 at 17:07
Lets not forget the misinformation being pumped out about the Almenly sieges: "broken sieges", "stuns sieges", "sieges successfully crippled". Truth is less than 10 catapults were lost, one town was razed (active) and a capital exoed.


Posted By: zolvon
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 00:19
I suggest a ceasefire in the name of neurofibromatosis, lets make Koda's tourney a huge success.

You could re-start your bullying after, and then I might get involved Cool


Posted By: Curmudgeon
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 03:03
Good point Zolvon. Fortunately helping TUF have no troops so no gold burn doesn't stop us contributing to the tourney at all.

In other news, Demdigs, defender against the genocide of women and children is attacking a Lady who has repeatedly asked to be considered non-combatant. Go him. He's clearly very TUF these days.


Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 06:16
Um I just got a message the first time, I have never received a request from anyone, and if you do remember i gave people over 36 hours to tell me that they were non-combatant, she never once messaged me during that time, or since then. 


Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2016 at 15:45
Your "council" that decided to declare war is gone. The "Deathmongers" you've claimed couldn't behave are gone. It's time to declare why you continue this war.

-------------
I am not amused.


Posted By: Jax
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2016 at 20:27
Cut the bs. You could have ended it, but you didn't instead for asking Yarr to surrender. Or in Tuf's terms an "equal" peace. And now that the war is no longer in your favor again (ironically your alliance begetting a dogpile no less...), your asking for Yarr to end it. Here's a reason: Go shove it. 

-------------



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net