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LIGHTNESS DESCENDED

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Histories
Forum Description: Official and Unofficial Histories of Alliances, Wars & Politics
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5853
Printed Date: 24 Oct 2018 at 06:39
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: LIGHTNESS DESCENDED
Posted By: Taron
Subject: LIGHTNESS DESCENDED
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2014 at 07:12
A brief History on The Æsir vs TLR war.

Some time long ago there was a great moment when everyone had falling in love with the forum. They would laugh and play and have a wonderful good time! People understood jokes, as well as other people in general. But A dark cloud came. Ruining everyone's day. Angry post! Hate had corrupted the hearts of so many, and there was lots of lies and betrayals! Everyone was looking over there shoulder! NO ONE COULD BE TRUSTED!!! There were fights and yelling! Everyone was being forced to choose sides! No one was safe from the drafts of angry oppressors! Post of crazy nonsense confusing the world!
.....
And then it ended with a good old:
"Sorry there chaps, we weren't going to actu-"
-"SUBMIT!!!"
"... Okay... there buddy umm ya we wo-"
-"TELL Everyone That YOU SURRENDERED!!!!!!"
"......"
-"DO IT!!!!!"
"you done?"
-"YOU Mock me?!?!"
"Do you understand anything I am trying to say?"
-"SUBMIT!!!"

And fist were flying and insults covered the air in a foul way!

If Records are right there was an apology about how Awesome Æsir is and that we were sorry for cramping TLR style of giving outrageous demands.... As Æsir mentioned countless times about that being our reason... But as history has showen.... some how the victor's are not righting the stories... I mean if TLR was so victories in this battle over evil, dark minions of some puppet Master (Which Will remain secert!!!! FOREVER! MUAHAH)... TLR was  Showing such amazing glory, leadership, courage, honor, trustworthiness, as well as being overall Honest folk... ph...fe....HAHAHAHAH.....
.....

Back to the story of this Æsir vs TLR...

Ahem.. Yes TLR vanquished some evil force having some crusade on them obliterating them to nothingness to never be seen... As between Æsir and TLR... Well TLR did agree with Æsir for a cease fire... I wouldn't necesarly say they won.. or lost... but I mean... Æsir is still here... But I haven't seen a TLR in quite some time.

I hope this brief history of this crusade/war/vs makes as much sense as a one sided story can make. I mean if this doesn't make sense, then obviously you are reading this wrong.

Just remember who the important part is... Me... Taron here. Loved by all and lo---likes all equally.


-------------
I am Responsible for what I say.
I Am not responsible for what you understand.



Replies:
Posted By: Consul Zynot
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2014 at 17:40
Thumbs Down


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2014 at 21:17
Thank you for keeping it concise.  I hate those histories that go on and on and bring in irrelevant bits.

Clap


Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2014 at 18:11
heh. but the *other* thread is the one that was closed--because who can tell if those quotes are *real*?

/me rolls eyes.


Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2014 at 19:59
If you think the random babel after "and then it ended with a good old: ..." is what you are referring too, I have a few answers for you to understand:

1. I am not saying who is saying these lines, supposed lines.
2. .....

Well I have A reason to why. But I will apologize for summing up conversations between players to blunt points. For if I remember correctly from playing for 4 years is that i might have possible been directly involved in this supposed whatever this was. But instead of being angry fellows who have to re-post, slander and insult (Which I must add was a quoted message that was not in 'that' thread for some reason but men I don't judge those who try to skewer History in there favor. I am a slave to the truth.)

....

Soooo after how ever many years ago this 'Descending of Darkness' happen to some poor honest, honorable, non judging or rude free folk... I was told multiple times to drop the subject from multiple others. So I have. But if insulting rumors merge again, I must reply in the most reasonable way. Humor! For I find a disbanded group that has to re-post the war with there one sided facts (By not mention how the awesome people of Æsir decided how they would face the consequences of our actions. Hope they saved that message because I don't hold an archive of messages in my message box.) well i find it hilarious.

Any who... I was thinking of setting some facts straight for being involved, unlike so many others who are not but yet for some extremely odd reason keep on deciding to talk about matters not of there own and going off of a disbanded groups opinion. I can set a pretty straight record.

Æsir attacked and declared war for reason Destroyer and I have told multiple times (falling on deaf ears apparently)

TLR gathered multiple supporters through messages and GC support by giving out "there facts"

Æsir was told of possible destruction by TLR and supporters.

Æsir and TLR declared ceasefire. Making peace. The term of 'no one really won' sense both goals of alliances was "DESTROY" argo no one accomplished the mission at hand therefore a tie if a sport

Æsir is here...

TLR... well I cant say what happened for them, I am not in there alliance


-------------
I am Responsible for what I say.
I Am not responsible for what you understand.


Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2014 at 23:05
This is frustrating to read, I get the gist though (I think).






Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 03:26
Originally posted by StJude StJude wrote:

This is frustrating to read, I get the gist though (I think).
i can't make much of it, other than he feels that Aesir didn't look as good as it ought to have in abstractdream's rendition of the story.

as for being a "slave to the truth", there is one more side to every story than there are participants...and that last side is never told. these events are long past their expiry date. accept that player perspective taints each player's experience. in a historical forum, the appropriate antidote to a perspective with which one disagrees is to tell the tale again from a different one. it takes no special knowledge to mock and rail.


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 04:06
I am biased. We are all, are we not? I have no intention of telling the story from the other's perspective and couldn't even if I wanted to. I sincerely await a coherent counterpoint but based on this, I expect none will be forthcoming.

Seriously, though...did I not lay out in SPECIFIC terms the "reasons" given by the other side? Did I not link to the salient threads and state that there are more for the reading? I certainly did not present myself as a neutral party (third person narrative, not neutral) but I did make an effort to describe the views of those involved...all of those involved.

It is not my duty to post a rebuttal and it certainly is not my duty to make sense of a rambling, nearly incoherent diatribe. I wrote what I know, interpreted what I had to and I am willing to let the reader make their own call.

-------------
Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 05:45
I think it was reasonably comprehensible for anyone who was there.  As for the people who weren't, they probably don't care anyway.


Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 06:28
abstractdream you are correct. Biased and judging are a natural habit for any living thing. So yes I could go on a biased rant but instead I will summarize a message I stated to EF At that time. Plus I will throw in a short description of an alliance message, to clear History if you may, as well as the fact I am going off of memory here from how ever long ago... with no copy of a message I sent for reasons stated above... I hate mail basically...

But a basic summary;
Before Me and my amazing alliance members(you will see why "I" see them as amazing (Key word is "I")) declared for a ceasefire (TLR considered 'surrendering' for some weird reason) I sent out an alliance message stating our situation. That TLR and supporters planed to Destroy us off the map. I told my Members that if they want out before this 'Destroying' happened, they could leave with out any grudge or gilt, a free pass to go on in the game doing what they like and survive (we would hope that TLR and supporters would understand and honor, honorable people leaving for not agreeing within the alliance on if we were right or wrong with our war... but then was pretty questionable...). I let the whole alliance have a day to decide. I told them that I would be staying to fight from tooth to nail tell siege of the map. A few others, Destroyer I know for a fact, was one was Going to as well stand by the decision to stay and fight even if it meant obliteration.

(This is were 'I' Believe my Alliance members are amazing, you can say I am bias if you like)

But if I believe correctly, all my members agreed to stay and fight even if it meant obliteration. As well as not try to withstand, but to take as many with us as we go. Nothing makes a leader more proud of the honor loyalty his members have.

Now this is were I can not be sure, but is possible, specially during war, but there has been rumors that reach out saying spies were in our alliance, and obviously (Hopefully) TLR had the same suspicion.

I am not touching that topic for the fact that it could possible not be fact.

But shortly later a couple of days I got a message after having this debate with my members of "Lets Talk" from EF himself, Sorry for giving away a title to a message if that breaks any rules. but obviously this is when we negotiated, with many insulting comments in my direction for no good reason during a ceasefire (not a surrender) negotiation.

You don't need to find out or try to find my opinion or side. I will state it, the people can decide what to believe.

An individual who decides to make multiple accounts after making mistakes in the past and trying to come back, being a 'new improved person' ready to see if society accepts him

Or someone who has stayed, not changed and is still here.... Possible liked by very few individuals..

I have not lost a city, sadly I have had honorable members in my company lose cities... But Those who have stayed have made me proud! Even those who are expanding our efforts to be a relaxed alliance that does what we like, within the bounds of doing onto others as they would do onto you.


-------------
I am Responsible for what I say.
I Am not responsible for what you understand.


Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 09:15
Very interesting read Taron, and I could completely understand everything you wrote, mostly because of my time spent in Aesir and understanding you're not quite all there...

I wonder, looking back, if this minor war was one of the opening salvos to the huge world war that saw much great strife. It seems that all sides were already drawn way back then.


Posted By: Captain Kindly
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 16:59
The point Taron's humour is making to me is that all these so-called History threads in here are not really History, but more like one-sided Chronicles. I take them all with a grain of salt.

"History is written by the victors" is what some people always like to say in cases like this. That's always been one of the most BS statements concerning History. Historians go look for other sources for confirmation.

As one of my old Professors put it, "History may be dictated by victors, but that doesn't make it true". Wink


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/60249" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 17:41
Illy doesn't have historians. It's up to us to write it and that means it will be a "one sided chronicle" by default. The divisions are falling as should easily be predicted, therefore all of this must be taken with a grain of salt and that includes the comments after (this one too). I don't claim to be unbiased but I did try to explain the sides. If it's unsatisfactory to you then take up the pen and chronicle away.

BTW, thank you Taron for doing so. I'm no fan but at least you tried. More than I can say for most.

-------------
Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 22:15
It does not mean That it will be one sided by default. If you want to get the History correct... you can ask the opposing group instead of 'assume and guess' as you have been doing.

I will help you find out how to ask abstractdream!

There are these things called messages. IGM if you rather call them. You can use this to send a message to another individual who is possible on the other side. (hint hint you can message me for any questions about TLR vs Aesir sense I might have possible been involved you know).

If you are going to pretend to be a historian you might as well try a little better at pretending... I do a wonderful job to pretend to be mentally unstable! :D


-------------
I am Responsible for what I say.
I Am not responsible for what you understand.


Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 23:46
Originally posted by Captain Kindly Captain Kindly wrote:

The point Taron's humour is making to me is that all these so-called History threads in here are not really History, but more like one-sided Chronicles. I take them all with a grain of salt.
as do i. does it need to be said? the posts are signed. what more does one need?

let us not pretend these are any more than than they are: campfire tales told by grizzled warriors long after the event. it would be unreasonable to ask them to set their pride aside to tell them--it is pride that leads them to write them at all, to our benefit. but let not another's wounded pride lead to a shouting down of anyone who has a different view of the same event, or else we will have no tales at all. i do not see that Aesir comes off especially badly from abstractdream's story. if they are not heroic in it...would we expect Aesir to be the heroes from the perspective of abstractdream?

credit to Taron for returning to the thread. i now understand more than i did.

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I think it was reasonably comprehensible for anyone who was there.  As for the people who weren't, they probably don't care anyway.
i was either there or i wasn't, and in either case you are wrong.


Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2014 at 23:52
and, incidentally, i would argue that this is "really history". one cannot have a rounded view without first assembling a collection of "one-sided chronicles".


Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2014 at 10:17
BV had recently reconnected with me and had sent along a link to the compendium he has put together on his alliance profile page (which is worth checking out -- James Joyce would be impressed by his attention to detail). I really like that sort of thing and yeah, while it and anything else written about past gaming events around here will always be biased, I thought that that his willingness to collect and save conversations and missives from previous events is both impressive and important. I kind of encouraged BV to repurpose some of that content from his profile into posts in the Histories section, because I think it's a good idea to not only create new fictions for the game, but also preserve some of the game-oriented stories as well, even if they can never be sufficiently objective to the point where all current gamers find them to be reasonably accurate.

I get that in a retelling like this, someone is always going to not like it, since someone always ends up looking like the bad guy.

Truth be told, having been a witness to the events in question, I never saw this conflict through the lens of "good guy" and "bad guy," or that AESIR or Thordor were acting as heroes or villains. To the outside observer, it was for me a very exciting, interesting turn of events to watch that quickly evolved from a spat on GC to a conjecture over surrender terms to an impending invasion to turning of the tides of war. 

If you pull away from it and look at it dispassionately, there were a lot of twists and turns, and I think that even a new player trying to get a sense of how dynamic this game can be would find it compelling.

I think that we should have MORE histories like this. It might even be interesting to set up threads as annual "conventions" on past wars and other goings-on in order to keep discussing and debating them. If real historians can do this, then why not the Illy community?

NOTE: Epidemic seems to already be leading the "Official 2014 AESIR/TLR War Convention" with this wondering:

I wonder, looking back, if this minor war was one of the opening salvos to the huge world war that saw much great strife. It seems that all sides were already drawn way back then.



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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/263810" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2014 at 18:15
Ceasefire terms not surrender. That is the main goal I am trying to accomplish here. Aesir did not surrender. There was agreement to a ceasefire


-------------
I am Responsible for what I say.
I Am not responsible for what you understand.


Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2014 at 19:32
Originally posted by Taron Taron wrote:

Ceasefire terms not surrender. That is the main goal I am trying to accomplish here. Aesir did not surrender. There was agreement to a ceasefire

Got it. I'm cool with that. 

I understand your frustration over semantics. I get very frustrated by the widespread, hegemonic use of the term "Trove War," which is completely inaccurate and propagandistic. But that's for a whole 'nuther forum to open up old wounds on. Angry


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/263810" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2014 at 20:32
It seems like Taron's problem is with Eternal Fire. I presume that is who he refers to when he says "Æsir did not surrender." I did include in my story the subject line of a message referencing a white flag but that came from a member of Æsir. Otherwise I've not said anything of the sort. I actually called it a cease fire in the story.

-------------
Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2014 at 00:43
My problem is having some member from a alliance no longer in existence, which I might add that all of Illy seems quite fine with, Possible happier that this alliance of aggressive underdogs, is gone, feeling the need to describing Aesir as people who surrendered in fear. Which we did not as I explain early as an intelligent reader would have understood. It appears to me abstractdream that you have what I know as selective hearing, as well as I have also have mentioned how to make an unbias History, yet apparently it has still fallen on deaf ears...

Unbias History:

Find the individuals involved (For this matter Taron, GD, Avid from Aesir, and BV, EF (if he is still about), and other possible leading member.

Then you get them to tell there side of the story. Wow that seems pretty simple.

Next you look at the two informational letters and see were some areas don't match.

To fix this you simple state "Aesir believed... bla bla bla while TLR believed Bla bla bla" or the alternative to having 2 separate opinions (which can still be kept on record if you wish obviously sense it is history) is that the 2 opposer can agree to what happened.

I mean an intelligent person could figure that out.

Foot note (The 'intelligent person' is referring to your earlier discussion post cause I wanted to use it too. Seems fitting in some areas I think)


-------------
I am Responsible for what I say.
I Am not responsible for what you understand.


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2014 at 02:10
Wow...you seem confused at best. Taron, you clearly did not read my story. If you had, you'd know that I never said anything that even remotely correlates to "Aesir as people who surrendered in fear."

Stating that I have selective "hearing" is a flat out case of psychological projection.

As for the rest of your statement, I already addressed it.

-------------
Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2014 at 06:22
Yes I must be confused... I mean I do not know how propaganda.

'absent of any sort of real explanation and remand in the realm of trash talk'

associating a group as a cyber bully

'No one took his dread advice... Also'

The beginning of the main stream propaganda. Telling how some group did not take some terrifying advice, suggestive theme of this next upcoming explanations. Later at the end (Spoiler!) shows these honorable, honest folk are defeating the Evil, mean, cruel, tyrant... Me.

'recipients of this dagger of a message'

After sending a message offering those who we considered to be left in peace from the conflict, seems fair for a waring alliance to show mercy. Specially sense the attack was so sudden. I mean every war has both teams at a line and a ref yells "Start!" when wars happen... Element of Surprise never works in war, statistically proven (<--- this statistic is Not true)

'targeting a much smaller alliance in an unabashed power grab'

Because attacking a much smaller alliance will make us raise to such powers sense war never loses thousands upon thousands of resources. No matter which side you will lose something. But to say we are not ashamed for a power grab.... I must say that doesn't make Aesir look bad at all.

....

I could keep going down the list pointing out propaganda... But I have better things to do.
I don't mind History... But propaganda is something I am not for.


-------------
I am Responsible for what I say.
I Am not responsible for what you understand.


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2014 at 10:58
biased - one sided - propaganda

What new way will you or your friends describe my story next? Regardless, I have stated that it is so. As I said, I addressed that before.

Thanks for making my other point for me, though.

EDIT: Spelling

-------------
Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2014 at 15:28
Well thank you for admitting to making one sided propaganda biased history.

It hlps pove mi pont. This wil probbaly be my lat post.
(You probably still understand this above ^^^ even without it possible being spelt right, So as long as I get my message across... I am not to worried about spelling)

I feel like I have accomplished what I wanted to. Off to the cacti farm. Enjoy your time writing fan fic (for what ever fans) I shall go do what Aesir has a good time doing... Being awesome.


-------------
I am Responsible for what I say.
I Am not responsible for what you understand.


Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2014 at 02:40
erm...yeah. ok. i'm taking away from this that Taron saw the Lego Movie too many times...because repeating awesome over and over is definitely not propaganda and definitely not pandering.


Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2014 at 16:15
Dang it remind me of another movie I haven't seen yet.
I have always spoke highly of (mostly myself) and my alliance cause, well, It makes those I speak of feel good about themselves, I have also said earlyer in the post that it is my personal opinion about my alliance and even went into a lengthy explanation why i feel that way. Everyone else can think what they want about Aesir (like how I have heard that we are thought of as a 'lose cannon'). I prefer to say that it is awesome cause. A.) we are B.) we enjoy feeling like we are and C.) why not feel great about oneself?

We don't enforce or badger others to join our (awesome! Lol I had to add that in now) alliance like I have seen many other alliances do. We just sit about and if someone wants to join they ask.


-------------
I am Responsible for what I say.
I Am not responsible for what you understand.


Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2014 at 23:23
Originally posted by Taron Taron wrote:

Everyone else can think what they want about Aesir (like how I have heard that we are thought of as a 'lose cannon').
if this were true, why would we have this thread at all?



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