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Illytools and the war

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4329
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 07:01
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Topic: Illytools and the war
Posted By: JimJams
Subject: Illytools and the war
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 16:16
So Illytools was disabled for H? members.

I think this is one of the worst day for this game.

Very sad. And it destroys all the credit his author and EE got for it.

Nothing else I have to say on the matter.


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Replies:
Posted By: Dieneces
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 16:24
Its not just you its out for me as well and we are not in the fighting. Thumbs Down


Posted By: Janosch
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 16:28
I have allways wondered if Illytools could be used to get information about those that use it?

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You like Democracy? Join the http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/topic3448_post42792.html#42792" rel="nofollow - Old Republic !


Posted By: Fenrisulven
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 16:36
It appears that Electronic Warfare has been introduced to Illyriad.  


Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 16:43
I think we're being a little dramatic.  Seems like a pretty reasonable measure to me.


Posted By: Loud Whispers
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 16:46
Originally posted by Fenrisulven Fenrisulven wrote:

It appears that Electronic Warfare has been introduced to Illyriad.  
Soon people will start tapping accounts for information and throwing bribes around.

*Dramatic music*


Posted By: tansiraine
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 16:52
it stinky!!!! i use that to change cities on my map made it sooo much easier.  Not a happy Tansi


Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 16:54
Harmless no longer considers Illytools a safe site and has urged it's members to delete the script permanently.    Whether it is due to the war or not, we will not consider this tool safe again.

Edit:   Unlike Eaque, Butler and Arcanum Illria Wiki will be available to all as it has been in the past. een.


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CEO, Harmless?
Founder of Toothless?

"Truth never dies."
-HonoredMule



Posted By: Arakamis
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:00
a shame if this is all true..


Posted By: tansiraine
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:03
it is Arakamis have a confirmation IGM from eaque and he stated it in GC..


Posted By: Gragnog
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:07
As this is against the rules of Illy I think the devs need to take rapid and immediate action. Pretty weak form from so called "Good Guys". I guess H? is not as evil as most think. Look at the people who say they are helping you. I guess Illy Tools is a nice way for a third party to gather information about players.


Posted By: Mahaut
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:15
I think its seems entirely reasonable to disable it.  
The author of it is in an alliance at war. By disabling the tool he has made it so that accusations about his alliance being able to access information from an enemy alliance can no longer be made.



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Posted By: PirateKing
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:26
Doubtful that Illy tools would leak account information.  Were that the case I am sure they would not have shut it down.  Harmless should shut down the Illy Wiki and Butler to be equally spiteful.  Evil Smile

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Aarrr! Thar be no better friend than making friends with a pirate!
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/external/alliance.asp?AllianceID=401" rel="nofollow - ~SouthSeasPirates~


Posted By: Turgor
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:28
It no way does disabling a tool to certain members violate any Illy rules .. please see here the rules that ALL third party approved add-ons must adhere too -  http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/rules-regarding-third-party-tools_topic756.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/rules-regarding-third-party-tools_topic756.html

Eaque has been kind enough to allow ALL users of Illy to use his tool. however, why should we allow our opponents an easier time of things during conflict? It also removes any chance of people crying wolf over 'gaining information' as the previous post points out. 


Posted By: Arakamis
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:29
It is not reasonable at all. This is a third party tool created to enhance game play for everyone. Disabling it, is just against the idea behind it.

Anyways, I have just removed Illy Tools and will never touch it again. This is just wrong.

and about "accessing information". If there is a slightest possibility of accessing information through Illy Tools, the devs should not allow its usage and distribution. Simple as that.


Posted By: tansiraine
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:30
Originally posted by Mahaut Mahaut wrote:

I think its seems entirely reasonable to disable it.  
The author of it is in an alliance at war. By disabling the tool he has made it so that accusations about his alliance being able to access information from an enemy alliance can no longer be made.




Is it  disabled for all the alliances at war with EE or only H?

If only H? it  can cause conflict about the use of third party tools. 

Also you can still get information about anyone in H? from illytools the same as it was before it was disabled.  The program pulls information from the server.

Also why disable it i mean yea all is fair in love and war but it just makes me wonder if Consone / EE is worried or having second thoughts about all the war... or have we won already just out of fear


Posted By: Mahaut
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:35
Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

As this is against the rules of Illy I think the devs need to take rapid and immediate action. Pretty weak form from so called "Good Guys". I guess H? is not as evil as most think. Look at the people who say they are helping you. I guess Illy Tools is a nice way for a third party to gather information about players.


To the best of my knowledge there isn't any way that the tool would have been released if it was possible to access the information.  However from Eaque's point of view that hasn't stopped people accusing it of being so.  See my quoted post above from Gragnog...who is accusing it of so doing even AFTER it has been disabled. 
I can totally see why Eaque dosen't want that sort of thing going on.


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Posted By: Dieneces
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:38
It should be foe everyone or none  not just a few either way.


Posted By: tansiraine
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:41
if you have illytools installed ( and it works ) you can get information about anyone in illy it takes the information from the server.  you can see how long ago it was since someone had activity on their account, city locations and populations also the redbird tacking is great to catch thieves.  That is only some of the great options of illytools.

I am disappointed in EEK for making such a great tool for the better enjoyment of the game to disable it over politics.

There are many things EEK can find out from illytools since he does have the server so he can tell when someone used the program last and i believe even get ip addresses for those whom have installed it if i remember correctly.


Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:42
To my knowledge, no one has questioned the integrity of Eaque's site from Harmless, at least we didn't until this morning so I don't buy that excuse, in fact, I encouraged our members to use it.  I regret that recommendation now.  EE declared war on H, he pulled H access, at least own up to it.    As for data collection, we know it is possible and the tool was working last night, no telling what changes he made to the script before he disabled it for H members.     As far as I am concerned, his integrity is in question and again, we have advised our members we do not consider this a safe site.     Trust has been broken and it will not be restored.

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CEO, Harmless?
Founder of Toothless?

"Truth never dies."
-HonoredMule



Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:42
Some alliances have tools that they don't share to anyone outside of their alliance. Eaque was generous enough to let everyone use it for a while. Thank you Eaque.

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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: PirateKing
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:51
It is a sad day today as we mourn the death of IllyTools.  We would like to thank Eaque for his wonderful contribution while it lasted.  As they say, "It's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all."  

IllyTools, you will be sorely missed.

R.I.P.


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Aarrr! Thar be no better friend than making friends with a pirate!
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/external/alliance.asp?AllianceID=401" rel="nofollow - ~SouthSeasPirates~


Posted By: Eaque
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:51
FYI, the decision to block H? and Dlord from Illytools has been taken by me, not EE leadership nor Consone.


Posted By: Granek
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:51
Originally posted by PirateKing PirateKing wrote:

Harmless should shut down the Illy Wiki and Butler to be equally spiteful.  Evil Smile

God, I hope Butler isn't shut down! I think I'd cry if I had to go back to the defaults chat windows, with their non-standard emoticons and *shudders* medals.



Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 17:55
Originally posted by Granek Granek wrote:

Originally posted by PirateKing PirateKing wrote:

Harmless should shut down the Illy Wiki and Butler to be equally spiteful.  Evil Smile

God, I hope Butler isn't shut down! I think I'd cry if I had to go back to the defaults chat windows, with their non-standard emoticons and *shudders* medals.



No worries and no plans to do so, these sites were released for the use and enjoyment for all players by HonoredMule.    He has too much integrity to play games with tools that have been released to the public.


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CEO, Harmless?
Founder of Toothless?

"Truth never dies."
-HonoredMule



Posted By: PirateKing
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 18:05
Originally posted by Eaque Eaque wrote:

FYI, the decision to block H? and Dlord from Illytools has been taken by me, not EE leadership nor Consone.
Aaarrrrrr!  The truth shall set you free.

I respect you for your conviction.  May I ask if you have been or under attack by either H? or Dlords? 


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Aarrr! Thar be no better friend than making friends with a pirate!
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/external/alliance.asp?AllianceID=401" rel="nofollow - ~SouthSeasPirates~


Posted By: Dieneces
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 18:10
Originally posted by Eaque Eaque wrote:

FYI, the decision to block H? and Dlord from Illytools has been taken by me, not EE leadership nor Consone.

 Well sorry but that means it should NOT be available to Consone alliance as well .Only fair is fair


Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 18:15
Such a noble player turned evil and corrupt by consone.  Consone must be stopped before they corrupt more noble players.


Posted By: Daufer
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 18:27
Originally posted by Starry Starry wrote:

Originally posted by Granek Granek wrote:

Originally posted by PirateKing PirateKing wrote:

Harmless should shut down the Illy Wiki and Butler to be equally spiteful.  Evil Smile

God, I hope Butler isn't shut down! I think I'd cry if I had to go back to the defaults chat windows, with their non-standard emoticons and *shudders* medals.



No worries and no plans to do so, these sites were released for the use and enjoyment for all players by HonoredMule.    He has too much integrity to play games with tools that have been released to the public.

Plus, other players using Butler and the wiki can't use it to gain any military advantage over H?, so why would he bother?


Posted By: Daufer
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 18:32
Originally posted by IceDragon IceDragon wrote:

Originally posted by Eaque Eaque wrote:

FYI, the decision to block H? and Dlord from Illytools has been taken by me, not EE leadership nor Consone.

 Well sorry but that means it should NOT be available to Consone alliance as well .Only fair is fair

Any alliance with a competent programmer should be able to develop something like this.  No doubt many have, and didn't release the tool for the public to use.  I'm sure H? has something that gives them all the military tools they need and the loss of IllyTools isn't going to negatively affect them.  Why should Eaque punish everyone not at war with his confederation by denying them the use of the app?  Why should his own alliance not be allowed to benefit from his work and creativity just because he won't let his enemies use it?

And what on earth does fair have to do with war anyway?  That's just silly.  You keep advantages for yourself and you deny them to the enemy if possible.  Doing it the other way around is moronic.


Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 18:42
Originally posted by Gragnog Gragnog wrote:

Look at the people who say they are helping you.

Heh, I have never used that tool - thus no idea what it did - but this is a very valid point ... 

Something is either made to be "free for all" or it is made to be exclusive to those that pay the price for it ....  

When something is "free for all" then it goes without saying that there is no price and no strings attached to it ... 

When something is exclusive then a price has to be paid for it, even if it is a seemingly small one like staying in a particular alliance, for instance ...

These things are not against the rules, as far as I know and not immoral either (basic tavern marketing actually : "come to our restaurant, we have the best steaks" ) ... it is however a very significant move and when a free commodity suddenly aquires a price, then people do tend to think twice of using it again and whether they were wise to use it in the first place. 

All in all, bad PR move ... and if indeed they could get data out of it that could aid them to the war, then giving notice that something is wrong was a bad strategic move as well ... :p


Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 18:55
Poor form by Eaque. 


Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 19:04
Originally posted by tansiraine tansiraine wrote:

if you have illytools installed ( and it works ) you can get information about anyone in illy it takes the information from the server.  you can see how long ago it was since someone had activity on their account, city locations and populations also the redbird tacking is great to catch thieves.  That is only some of the great options of illytools.

I am disappointed in EEK for making such a great tool for the better enjoyment of the game to disable it over politics.

There are many things EEK can find out from illytools since he does have the server so he can tell when someone used the program last and i believe even get ip addresses for those whom have installed it if i remember correctly.

IP addresses, account name and other data are personal information, as I read the terms of third party tools, it's forbidden to collect data.      


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CEO, Harmless?
Founder of Toothless?

"Truth never dies."
-HonoredMule



Posted By: Daufer
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 19:04
Originally posted by Deranzin Deranzin wrote:

When something is exclusive then a price has to be paid for it, even if it is a seemingly small one like staying in a particular alliance, for instance ...

 ... it is however a very significant move and when a free commodity suddenly aquires a price, then people do tend to think twice of using it again and whether they were wise to use it in the first place. 

All in all, bad PR move ... and if indeed they could get data out of it that could aid them to the war, then giving notice that something is wrong was a bad strategic move as well ... :p

So far the price for using IllyTools is : don't declare war on an ally of the guy who wrote it.  Seems like an amazingly small price to pay.  Aside from the H? members who have a stake in demonizing anything their opponent does, I can't see why anyone else finds this unreasonable.  If you have a friend who regularly borrows your car, and you catch him banging your girlfriend one day, do you still let him borrow the car?  If you decide not to, should other people think less of you for it?

As far as I can tell the data-mining potential of IllyTools is limited to voluntarily sending your combat reports to a compilation site, which might show a pattern of the kind of troops you use and how many you have or how fast you replace them.  If you think sharing your combat reports with the public is a bad idea you probably shouldn't click the big button that says "share my combat report"

Other obvious sources of military value include redbirds, population history table to tell you if a player is offline every thursday, and empire gives you a quick overview of what you have and are producing in your own cities at a glance, which saves time.  None of this is stuff you couldn't do for yourself or write a simple script to do for you if you have a programming background.


Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 19:27
Originally posted by Daufer Daufer wrote:

 
So far the price for using IllyTools is : don't declare war on an ally of the guy who wrote it.  Seems like an amazingly small price to pay.

Small or not it IS a price to PAY and its significance will be assessed by each INDIVIDUAL playing the game and not by you or me (and on that regard I was very carefully with my expressions on the matter ).

Of what I understand, said price was not written in the ToS of the tool, btw ... :p 

Quote Aside from the H? members who have a stake in demonizing anything their opponent does, I can't see why anyone else finds this unreasonable.

Really .?. Is this matter only viewed as sad only by H? members .?. Could be, I haven't checked if all those comments belong to H? members, but your statement sounds a bit implausible ... 

Quote  If you have a friend who regularly borrows your car, and you catch him banging your girlfriend one day, do you still let him borrow the car?  If you decide not to, should other people think less of you for it?

Sorry, but this example is utterly wrong. 

First of all we do not have a car borrowed with a friend, but a car SHARED with MANY friends.
Second of all, noone broke ANY promises (that banging of girlfriend implies that) since noone knew of that price you mentioned before. 
Third point is that you just keep ONE person out of the many away from the shared vehicle. 
Forth point is that I am not thinking anything less of the creator of said tool (not thinking anything more either, btw). I just said that other people might think twice about the wisdom of using such a shared vehicle, to stick with your example, or if it was wise to use it in the first place.

Other minor point pending clarification is what happened with the driving licence and registration that the banned person left in the glove compartment when you changed the vehicle keys ... hey, after all it wasn't such a bad example ... :p 
 
Quote As far as I can tell the data-mining potential of IllyTools is limited to voluntarily sending your combat reports to a compilation site

Well, sorry, but I'd like the programmer himself to clarify that point instead of wading into programming speculations ... 

Quote Other obvious sources of military value include redbirds, population history table to tell you if a player is offline every thursday, and empire gives you a quick overview of what you have and are producing in your own cities at a glance, which saves time.  None of this is stuff you couldn't do for yourself or write a simple script to do for you if you have a programming background.

Point being .?. 


Posted By: EvilKatia
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 19:36
+1 deranzin
 I find it sad and somehow disturbing....so H? (evil or not) are restricted access. 

Fine its Eaque, the creator of Illytool decision, its his program. 

But then all their data shouldnt be seen and use by others too. they should be wholly and totally excluded out of this. after all if they cant use it why should others be able to see them get info on them ?
Also I remember H? players saying they didnt doubt Eaque integrity on Gc in the past.....

So blaming them for that....why just not block all those who made those comments instead ? each time they make them from whatever alliance block them.....

RIP Illytool I guess I better get un-lazy. sad days.


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Kat

'They have to always turn a forum post into a badly written book that gives a headache and takes your iq points' - AO


Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 19:38
Is it just H? and Dlords that are blocked, or RHY as well?


Posted By: tansiraine
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 19:51
Eaque has stated earlier in this post it was H? and Dlords.  If Rhy is having a issue send Eek a IGM to see if you are also blocked.

Eek is a great guy.  I just thing this is mean poopyhead thing to do.  Also honestly hurt my feelings cause even though I am no longer part of EE I thought some of the relationships there and my perception of people there were still true... War changes everything I guess...

not a happy Tansi...


Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 20:00
Yeah, I saw his post about H? and Dlords (and subsequently realized Dlords was in the war -- haven't been reading that mega death thread).

Was just wondering if this had anything to do with the war, or was specifically targeting those two for some reason.  I missed any earlier discussion of the subject, obviously (I hear he said something about it in GC).


Posted By: tansiraine
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 20:05
it is war related with H? and Dlords not being able to use illytools


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 20:05
Originally posted by Daufer Daufer wrote:

  If you think sharing your combat reports with the public is a bad idea
 It is, I never did, but it is no disaster:  Knowing the size of an army before and after killing a legion of rats four weeks ago won't decide this war, the public list of casualties at tournament squares is far more dangerous.


Posted By: Gon
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 20:56
I can see why people are not happy that he disabled it for a limited number of players on one side of a conflict. But did they expect him to let them use the program he wrote while they are simultaneously burning his friends' cities to the ground? And when the siege engines land at his doorstep? Will there still be outrage when he cuts off access 

"Sure I'll make it easier for you to manage your cites and forces while you destroy my friends and allies."


Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 20:59
Illyriad LLC should prohibit the use IllyTools.


Posted By: PirateKing
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 21:14
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

Such a noble player turned evil and corrupt by consone.  Consone must be stopped before they corrupt more noble players.
Aarrrr!  Can ye be explainin' tis here statement further!  

There is so much to read on Consone, is this a Confederation of confederations? did this player join the confederation and become corrupted, or was he always a member even before the official consone post? I fail to see the logic. I dont believe naming a confederation taints all the players in it. 


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Aarrr! Thar be no better friend than making friends with a pirate!
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/external/alliance.asp?AllianceID=401" rel="nofollow - ~SouthSeasPirates~


Posted By: lethargic0N3
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 21:27
Originally posted by The_Dude The_Dude wrote:

Illyriad LLC should prohibit the use IllyTools.


Why?


Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 22:55
Regardless of your opinion on this matter, I'd like the inflammatory talk to cease so I will be closing this thread. 

The rules with relation to creation of third party tools are below and do not include any rule about limited distribution. 

http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/rules-regarding-third-party-tools_topic756.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/rules-regarding-third-party-tools_topic756.html

Also, I want to make it very clear that as a company, Illyriad takes a neutral stance on third party tools, with the exception of those that would break the rules above. We do not formally "approve" or endorse their use. We do not provide technical support with relation to them. Players use them entirely at their own risk. 

Any further questions about third party tools can be addressed to me in private, in a forum PM, email or in game.

Thanks.

Luna


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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk




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