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Central Trade Hub

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Trade Chat
Forum Description: Discuss harvesting, crafting and trade on Elgea here.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3918
Printed Date: 22 Nov 2019 at 21:20
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Central Trade Hub
Posted By: Lyken
Subject: Central Trade Hub
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 19:10
We were having a discussion about the upcoming addition of trade hubs, and there were concerns about what these additions might imply. 

People were concerned about the market becoming fragmented, spreading all the sell and buy orders out enough to cause many hubs to basically be dead. It will be difficult to sustain adequate traders without a generous supply of grapes for wine. This may lead to many players, especially smaller ones, being unable to take full advantage of the new system.

Brids and I had a thought. What if we chose ONE hub to be a central market. Each town would only require one trader to be guaranteed an active market. It's true that some will have an advantage due to their close proximity to said central hub, but at least we won't have to spend weeks guessing which hubs are being used the most, just to find someone where to dump our goods. 

We propose the central hub be, well, central.

(0, 0) is the location of Centrum, a hub for the council of Illyria. It being in the middle of the map makes it an ideal place, and even giving new players a distance advantage over (most) veterans. 

Any thoughts?



Replies:
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 19:50
I like the idea in general -- it is possible that some people might eventually have faction standings low enough with the Council to not be able to trade there at all.

A sort of amendment to the idea could be that alliances could all maintain a trader at one or two such hubs and then major trades could go through alliance representatives (if each player maintaining a trader there is too burdensome.)

I also like Harry's Black Market though; I don't know that I'd want to do high volumes of trade through there, but it's working well for now.


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 19:58
Yes, please, go all to central, I don't want too much competition in the regional markets I'm interested in.Tongue


Posted By: Prometheuz
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 22:07
Originally posted by Lyken Lyken wrote:

People were concerned about the market becoming fragmented, spreading all the sell and buy orders out enough to cause many hubs to basically be dead. It will be difficult to sustain adequate traders without a generous supply of grapes for wine. This may lead to many players, especially smaller ones, being unable to take full advantage of the new system...
...We propose the central hub be, well, central.
 
This is interesting and I see what you mean, but the release is not yet complete. We don't yet know what the full release will bring in terms of sustaining traders.  GM Luna more or less saod that more is yet to come especially taxation  As for smaller players -  my impression was that 10 city players are going to have tremendous advantage over the rest anyway by way of size and resources...

Originally posted by Lyken Lyken wrote:

(0, 0) is the location of Centrum, a hub for the council of Illyria. It being in the middle of the map makes it an ideal place, and even giving new players a distance advantage over (most) veterans. 
Any thoughts?
 
Yeah. My thoughts were that the one chance smaller players had was to find a niche in a complex market system based on the all faction hubs. Since each of the factions carry + and - negative factors depending on the race of the player a large number of hubs offer even newish players an option  to benefit from the  trader mechanics provided they have right goods and the most compatible faction.
 
What worries me is that a central single market hub with perhaps unitary rate of taxation would actually be the greatest disadvantage to smaller trading players. I have this vision of a Giant supermaket that strangles the smalltown or high street trader. So wouldn't a diversity of hubs be a more interesting...?
 
btw my worry is that a central hub will become so dominated by the big alliances that eventually they'll hang a giant sign over it:
 
FARMER KUMO'S DIME STORE  Wink


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 23:10
The intent for a central hub is not to make it the only hub people trade at but rather a place where everyone can reliably buy or sell at. Especially early on when people only get an initial trader and few people have built up enough wine to maintain a large number of traders. 

Besides, the market currently isn't dominated by large players, not even close. In fact the size of the player doesn't matter a whole lot. I buy from people who are close, not because they're selling 200,000 cows in one trade. I don't see after the changes this would be any different. It would just give people an idea of which of the 150-ish total trade hubs to go to. 


Posted By: Chaos Armor
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 23:27
I like the idea of a trade hub you could find just about everything at. Traders will flock to this hub because their sell orders will be accepted quickly and the buyers will flock to it because they can find everything there. 

If larger alliances dominate it then I guess we'll all have to find different hubs to trade at.


Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 01:39
Don't try to over complicate trade! In free market like in Illyriad trade will self regulate based upon demand and offer. 

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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 01:49
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Don't try to over complicate trade! In free market like in Illyriad trade will self regulate based upon demand and offer. 

All we're suggesting is that everyone sends a trader unit to 0|0 so everyone can trade with each other. How is that over complicating things or trying to regulate it? 


Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 03:46
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

Don't try to over complicate trade! In free market like in Illyriad trade will self regulate based upon demand and offer. 

All we're suggesting is that everyone sends a trader unit to 0|0 so everyone can trade with each other. How is that over complicating things or trying to regulate it? 

Everyone has to make a trader?


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 04:10
GM Luna stated that everyone gets one free trader. No upkeep, not cost. If you want additional traders you need wine and upkeep and all that. So we're saying is that IF you want to trade and you actually want to do so in a hub that mas more than 2 people in the area using it, we could do the central hub idea. You guys are turning this into something it isn't. 


Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 07:34
What it *is* is a good idea! - M.


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 07:57
The "free" trader you mentioned, I believe is the ability to see trades in your nearest hub without sending one of your "actual" traders.

I do like the thought of having a single, large market where anything and everything can be found, but this may not need to be encouraged too much as I think it may develop naturally.

Encouragement can't hurt though.


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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 08:09
Something about this idea sits with me wrong but I don't know why. 

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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 14:41
cause it's different you will get used to it.

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Nuisance


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 17:12
Originally posted by abstractdream abstractdream wrote:

The "free" trader you mentioned, I believe is the ability to see trades in your nearest hub without sending one of your "actual" traders.

I do like the thought of having a single, large market where anything and everything can be found, but this may not need to be encouraged too much as I think it may develop naturally.

Encouragement can't hurt though.

Originally posted by GM Luna GM Luna wrote:

Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

There are plenty dmar, mostly in "small green hills" kind of places. I have seen them in Keppen, Zanpur, Laoshin and some other places.

Are they really placed in certain places based on the area of the map? I worried this might be the case. I don't understand the Devs reasoning in this. Make an item that seems fairly scarce, then make players require mass quantities of it in order to trade? 

Grapes aren't required to trade. You can do town-to-town trades with caravans on the town-to-town market. And your first trader for your first trade hub doesn't require any grapes. So you can trade without having any grapes. But if you want to trade in distant lands in many hubs, you'll start to need them to create your traders. 

It will take a while of us monitoring trade once the system is fully operational in game to tell if any change to grape distribution is required. Until then, we just have to wait and see. 

Luna


Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 17:21
im not sending goods or buying goods 3 weeks trip away from my towns.. sounds stupid to anyone not living in the newb ring.

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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 18:07
A central hub would be at most 2 days away with a level 20 market; granted, it would be somewhat inconvenient, but keep in mind that your caravans can drop stuff off and travel back.  Of course, another alternative is that people could do arbitrage, buy in the central hub and sell in one of the distant hubs.

Or, perhaps I'll start Illy's version of the wall street journal, post a trader at the central trade hub, and list all commodity prices from there several times a day.  Or maybe someone will develop a tool that will do it automatically and post it to a public site -- for all the hubs.  I'm sure dunnoob would complain about that, but it would be worth a little whining.


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 19:39
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I'm sure dunnoob would complain about that, but it would be worth a little whining.
I'm fine with everything helping me to say hi to master traders such as Deathdealer, Kelis, and Progressor sooner than soon™, but admittedly whine without H is still on my ToDo list.Tongue


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 21:35
Don't forget, SC said that the traders will be able to go between hubs without needing to return home first.

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 21:49
Originally posted by abstractdream abstractdream wrote:

The "free" trader you mentioned, I believe is the ability to see trades in your nearest hub without sending one of your "actual" traders.

I do like the thought of having a single, large market where anything and everything can be found, but this may not need to be encouraged too much as I think it may develop naturally.

Encouragement can't hurt though.

Looks like I'm wrong, again:

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Trader units are expensive to recruit, in terms of both gold and (from your second unit onwards) Wine. The cost of recruiting Traders is figured per player, not per town. The more you have, as a player not per settlement, the higher the recruitment costs.

Well, encouragement is still good.


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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Arkenor Oakshadow
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 22:33
Do we know if all the trade-hubs will have the same tax rate?

For instance, the more central and/or popular ones might raise their taxes to take advantage of that.


Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 22:41
Originally posted by Arkenor Oakshadow Arkenor Oakshadow wrote:

Do we know if all the trade-hubs will have the same tax rate?

For instance, the more central and/or popular ones might raise their taxes to take advantage of that.

I don't think they will. Trade hubs of factions that you and your alliance are friendly with will have lower taxes. 


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 22:44
As Bona said, the tax rate will vary with faction standing.


Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 23:30
Originally posted by Prometheuz Prometheuz wrote:

Originally posted by Lyken Lyken wrote:

People were concerned about the market becoming fragmented, spreading all the sell and buy orders out enough to cause many hubs to basically be dead. It will be difficult to sustain adequate traders without a generous supply of grapes for wine. This may lead to many players, especially smaller ones, being unable to take full advantage of the new system...
...We propose the central hub be, well, central.
 
This is interesting and I see what you mean, but the release is not yet complete. We don't yet know what the full release will bring in terms of sustaining traders.  GM Luna more or less saod that more is yet to come especially taxation  As for smaller players -  my impression was that 10 city players are going to have tremendous advantage over the rest anyway by way of size and resources...

Originally posted by Lyken Lyken wrote:

(0, 0) is the location of Centrum, a hub for the council of Illyria. It being in the middle of the map makes it an ideal place, and even giving new players a distance advantage over (most) veterans. 
Any thoughts?
 
Yeah. My thoughts were that the one chance smaller players had was to find a niche in a complex market system based on the all faction hubs. Since each of the factions carry + and - negative factors depending on the race of the player a large number of hubs offer even newish players an option  to benefit from the  trader mechanics provided they have right goods and the most compatible faction.
 
What worries me is that a central single market hub with perhaps unitary rate of taxation would actually be the greatest disadvantage to smaller trading players. I have this vision of a Giant supermaket that strangles the smalltown or high street trader. So wouldn't a diversity of hubs be a more interesting...?
 
btw my worry is that a central hub will become so dominated by the big alliances that eventually they'll hang a giant sign over it:
 
FARMER KUMO'S DIME STORE  Wink

Prommy, 

don't you know Centrum is MINE ?


Posted By: hellion19
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 12:24
Though I think the central idea is good I think it may also go against what seems to be the idea of breaking up the one main market. Their goal was to break it into all the trading hubs and this idea tries to push it back to how it was for the most part.

Main thing is I think it will result in a bit higher prices and become a sellers market for the initial part of it and eventually even out a bit later on. Many of the gatherers currently which many of the smaller players get an advantage in this as many of their towns could likely support more cottages where as the rest of us had to destroy buildings to make cottages. Then depending on what they manage to supply it will be bought by highest bidder...

So I do disagree that the larger players will have the largest advantage. Infact I would say mid level players or players that had a few small cities likely did. Makes a massive difference when a town can drop 15 cottages and still improve other structures compared to breaking down 1-2 buildings for 1-2 cottages...


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 18:38
Even assuming the developers have a goal of fragmenting the market ... who says we have to go along with it?  We are not sheep, we have the capacity to shape the world that the divine Crow and Cat make for us.  And if we prefer to have a centralized market mechanism, then by golly we can make one.

(Said with affection toward said Crow and Cat, who have said in the past they are always intrigued and amused with what players do -- often in a completely unanticipated way -- with the mechanics that they invent.)


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 19:52
I don't see the problem, other than just complaining for complaint's sake.

Big, vet type players will use gold to get what they need. If you think they're are not going to want that Elite Army of Knights or Elite Mounted Swordsmen, you aren't paying attention. Those who don't want that aren't really playing anyway.

Small, newb like players will dominate the market for minerals and herbs, including grapes as these are easy to research and very inexpensive to gather. The rare items, I assume will be coming mostly from small to medium sized players. Indeed, the very act of getting to the point of mining and harvesting rare resources will grow the small player.

Even if everything I said is wrong, pouting and promising to quit is the shelter of complacency.

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: hellion19
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 20:51
Though found another annoying thing is that trade office has consumption :/ So if the market itself taxes then in addition to that your double taxed off of the consumption of the buildings needed to trade also.


Edit- So I take a little out of the idea that the trade improvements actually help lower end players as most likely can't maintain the trade office... So what I suspected our main supply will come from likely will have problems even trading through the hubs.


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 22:48
Originally posted by hellion19 hellion19 wrote:

Though found another annoying thing is that trade office has consumption :/ So if the market itself taxes then in addition to that your double taxed off of the consumption of the buildings needed to trade also.


Edit- So I take a little out of the idea that the trade improvements actually help lower end players as most likely can't maintain the trade office... So what I suspected our main supply will come from likely will have problems even trading through the hubs.

Why couldn't they maintain a level one trade office? Even if they can't, I think the majority of sales will be "under the table." Trade is trade, regardless of whether there's a middle man or not. There's already a Trade Chat in the Forums, why not use it? For example: big players post buy orders and smaller players can come on, find a name and approach in-game.


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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2012 at 16:12
Because its a pain in the butt to do trade that way while our current market works perfectly fine.  Except for the newly released items but I haven't seen anything with regards to faction trading working yet either so faction trading could be an equal pain in the butt.


Posted By: Raatalagk
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 02:38
Any news on this? Can someone give an idea of the current level of trade activity in Centrum?


Posted By: nitin2011
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 08:27
not much .. only 2 sell order atm for rare res (one is mine Wink )


Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 09:41
Originally posted by Raatalagk Raatalagk wrote:

Any news on this? Can someone give an idea of the current level of trade activity in Centrum?

It's low, but look like the only one with life...


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Posted By: Raatalagk
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 04:02
Ellesmere has a touch of life. But just barely.


Posted By: Gartak
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 09:44
I have found buy and sell orders in both Selenze, Cittacolumbae, Laresh, Shelton and Tempus.

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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/24385" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 03:37
Gajik Festral is occupied. It's only me, but that's a start.

Blood Reavers are fun!

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Bonfyr Verboo



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